Hd 3870x2 [Archive]

bazx

01-31-2008, 08:51

Whilst these cards are “single slot cards”
They are 2 separate chip/cores on one card and as such are defeating the point of single card benching imo

Should these cards that come out once a year have the "Own Ranking"

As the true single card “one chip/core” cards are being removed from the rankings by these units

i feel like i have been racing a car all season with one engine and at the last race of the year
cars with two engines have been entered in my class and have won the day

thanks baz

3D03: rankings below

1. 78022 marks - CapFTP (Tecnocomputer.it) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 931/1080mhz)
94.3 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

2. 76450 marks - pro (i4memory.com) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 918/1098mhz)
75.5 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

3. 75734 marks - boblemagnifique (OverClocking-Masters) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 904/1071mhz)
66 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

4. 74568 marks - jimmyz (XtremeSystems) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 900/1060mhz)
61.1 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

5. 71407 marks - gprhellas (H.O.T. (Hellas O/C Team)) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 880/1050mhz)
56.3 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

6. 70440 marks - geoffrey (OC-Team.Be) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 900/1050mhz)
54.3 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

7. 70346 marks - eleven (OutOfSpecs.Gr) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 855/955mhz)
52.8 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

8. 69594 marks - ncsa (i4memory.com) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 825/901mhz)
51.3 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

9. 69499 marks - No_Name (AwardFabrik) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 825/900mhz)
49.8 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

10. 69483 marks - T_M (i4memory.com) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 825/900mhz)

richba5tard

01-31-2008, 09:30

I disagree. While they are 2 chips on one card, it uses one socket. We prefer the # sockets used policy instead of # of cores.

You do not have to have a special motherboard or even a big wallet.

I do not deny that knowing the efficiency per core is almost as interesting as the efficiency per socket, but in the end it's the latter that matters for the consumer.

bazx

01-31-2008, 09:38

i disaree

the consumer here at hwbot buy one card a year to bench and that ranking is hard fort

the scores being put out by these cards is up there with sli/fire so would be better grouped with them by score/potential

or we will have a single card top 20 with no single chip/cored cards in it

Massman

01-31-2008, 10:03

the consumer here at hwbot buy one card a year to bench and that ranking is hard fort

But the consumer can buy ONE card, the 3870 X2, and bench it as well, no?

Physically, it's one card with 2 gpu's. That's what ATI provides for the ultimate gaming experiance. If it's indeed this powerful, kudos to ATI and good for those who are able to bench with the cards.

richba5tard

01-31-2008, 10:10

Imho the only division that completely fair is division by price range.

As it is practically not possible, division by # sockets is much better than # cores. It's much cheaper to buy a HD3870X2 than a single 8800U.

bazx

01-31-2008, 10:26

"But the consumer can buy ONE card, the 3870 X2, and bench it as well, no?"

hehe so you would have a top 20 with just the card "3870 X2"

we could call it the

hwbot ATI 3870 X2 competition

and remove the single card rankings altogether

at this rate there will be no "true single card" rankings within 10 days

just ati 3870 x2

richba5tard

01-31-2008, 10:31

It always been like this, bazx. The fastest card is at the top... no-one complained when the 8800U ruled the rankings.

Massman

01-31-2008, 10:32

Bazx, that's what happens when new hardware is released. You could have made the exact same comment when the 8800GTX was launched: "HWBot Nvidia 8800 competition".

New hardware pops up and we try to divide them in competitions as fair/straight-forwarded as possible. That card is ONE card, so it shouldn't compete with systems that have TWO cards, I believe?

bazx

01-31-2008, 10:33

Imho the only division that completely fair is division by price range.

this would make no difference to the situation these cards would still be messing up the single card rankings

no one single card can beat one of these units and as such should not be in the single card rankings

they have 2x cores/chips, it is totally unfair to group these units with 1x core/chip units

when they have more in common with sli/fire

richba5tard

01-31-2008, 10:38

They have technically more in common with sli/cf configurations, I agree.

But practically, they have all the same characteristics as single card configurations: same price range, no special motherboard. Whether they internally differ from other cards does not matter for the consumer.

I follow your logic, but if you think like that you can only have fun within one hw category. :)

bazx

01-31-2008, 10:40

It always been like this, bazx. The fastest card is at the top... no-one complained when the 8800U ruled the rankings.

you are both missing my point the examples you point out

are ultra and gtx both these units are single core/chip

so belong in the single card rankings

2x chipcards cannot be taken down by the single card /core/chip units
so are un-beatable

in this class

bazx

01-31-2008, 10:42

bazx

01-31-2008, 10:51

can cards be grouped by number of GPU instead of slot

this would solve the ranking problem as i see it

Massman

01-31-2008, 10:51

IIRC, FM has problems with dividing certain categories into single/sli, no?

In understand exactly what you mean, but I'm afraid we'll stick to the single vs multiple card system we have now.

Sorry if this does not fullfil your needs :(

richba5tard

01-31-2008, 10:52

What about the G7950X2?

K404

01-31-2008, 10:53

Im not massively happy with the X2 as a single card, but i can see both sides of the argument.

Whenever a new top-end card comes out, yup its total dominance, but this card does feel like a cheat slightly (on ATIs part, and soon to be nVs as well)

3DM03 is already a total writeoff for all other cards, but heres hoping its more hassle than its worth to freeze them :p

EDIT: Technically 3 and 4 way GPU setups are unfair too- to everyone without the exact hardware and wallet required, but at least that doesnt affect me :p

bazx

01-31-2008, 11:58

What about the G7950X2?

these units should be with the ati x2 in there own ranking system imo

if we have a ranking system then it should be seen to be fair?

or there really is no point in a ranking system?

2x gpu card cannot be compared to 1x GPU cards it is not possible

the score out-put from these units is just to big

you may aswell put the single cards in with sli

thanks baz

r1ch

01-31-2008, 12:30

Tricky one this, and it comes down to the decision as to whether the scores are divided by "# of gpus" or "# of sockets" used.

My opinion would be to change the system to "# of gpus", or differentiate based on whether SLI/Crossfire is used.

i.e
1 GPU
2 GPU
3 GPU
4 GPU

or...

No SLI/CF
SLI/CF

The second (SLI/CF) obviously doesn't scale well when you think about Triple SLI, or the dual 3870X2 Quadfire or 4x3850 Quadfire. This makes it tricky for the future.

The current system based on sockets does seem unfair, as the only difference between two HD3870's in CF and the HD3870X2 (internal CF) is the physical way they're connected - there's exactly the same GPU's.

# of GPU makes the most sense to me and allows easy exapnsion for the future of hwbot :)

SF3D

01-31-2008, 12:30

I can see the problem, but what is the difference between single core processor and dual core / quad core. Superpi use only one core, so everyone can bench it easily. Wprime is multithreaded benchmark, so you have better score with multiple cores in one processor. It still is one processor, but it can do more work in same time.

Same thing is with VGAs. Now you can have multicore VGA. Single card, but better results than before in multithreaded applications. Best results are obviously achieved in 3DM03 which uses almost only VGA power.

This is the way graphics gards are developing and we just have to deal with it. This is the easiest solution to have more rendering power. 9800GX2 will follow 3870X2 soon.

No need to discuss this further: Rich and Massman have already said all we have to say about this issue. *Don't get me wrong bazx :)*

K404

01-31-2008, 12:40

Nice point SF3D, I was about to add this myself:

What about multi-way systems in wPrime? Theres 8 and 16-way servers in there too along with the single-CPU chips. Could/should those be split off into a separate section?

Annnddd (lol sorry guys!) 3 and 4-way SLI/CF systems arent fair to 2-way users. Rankings suggest that ya either get a 3 or 4 system, or kiss an attempt at ranking well goodbye. I know its been discussed, but as more lines are being blurred and computers diversify more, is it ok to keep the categories so simple?

K

richba5tard

01-31-2008, 12:51

Massman

01-31-2008, 13:08

is it ok to keep the categories so simple?

Is it okay to make everything so complicated that no one really knows how to compare scores and systems?

bazx

01-31-2008, 13:17

Splitting up single/multi sockets cpu's is planned, k404.

I know using 3/4 way SLI/CF isn't 'fair' as supposed to 2x, but if we split up every possibility, we would have way too many rankings.

single socket cpu & multi socket cpu
single socket gpu & multi socket gpu
= 4 rankings

vs.
1 & 2 & 4 & 8 & 16 & 32 & ... cpu
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 gpu
= 10+ rankings

imo there cannot be any competition unless we all start in the correct category
to begin with

1xGPU, 2xGPU,3xGPU,ect is the fairest way as we would all no exactly who we were to compete against

Putting the 2x gpu in with the 1x gpu may well be easier to implement
From hwbots point of view

But it is making a mockery out of the rankings

For me to get 64k in 3D03 I need to work very hard with cascade cooling and vmods

For me to 70k with an x2 I only need to buy it put it in my system and submit to hwbot

K404

01-31-2008, 13:36

Is it okay to make everything so complicated that no one really knows how to compare scores and systems?

Is it ok to put the emphasis on who has the most endorsements or the deepest pockets, because thats easy to organise and code?

My first "Is it ok..." statement wasnt intended to be bitchy, and I dont want this thread to go down that route, no offense was meant! :)

r1ch

01-31-2008, 13:54

For me to get 64k in 3D03 I need to work very hard with cascade cooling and vmods

For me to 70k with an x2 I only need to buy it put it in my system and submit to hwbot

I agree with your point in general baz, but this argument doesn't help.

There's always going to be an evolution of GPU's. 8800GTX's kicked volt modded X19xx and 79xx cards when they were released and etc etc. The problem here is that the HD3870X2 (and in time, the 9800GX2) have two GPU's and use the Crossfire or SLI technology to generate the processing power they posess. (Seperate point, but if it was a dual core GPU i.e two cores on one package like the R700 is apparently planned to be, then this question will come up again).

The way this should be approached is we believe the system should be changed to "# of GPUs" not "# of sockets".

Massman

01-31-2008, 13:59

Is it ok to put the emphasis on who has the most endorsements or the deepest pockets, because thats easy to organise and code?

My first "Is it ok..." statement wasnt intended to be bitchy, and I dont want this thread to go down that route, no offense was meant! :)

Non taken, my post was to reverse your question and let you see the other side of the problem.

Deepest pockets? Afaik a 3870 X2 is not the most expensive card on the market. This is just a matter of new hardware popping up and making things a little bit 'unfair'. I can see where you guys see a problem, but this discussion will come up everytime new hardware is launched :)

//EDIT: This is a question related to the question: "How future-proof is HWBot?" ... and is in fact quite interesting.

sacha35

01-31-2008, 14:04

HI there all and i apologize for this long post to start with, but feel i need to put my point forward for the good and fun of this benching communities.

will this be the same then when the new Intel skull trail Motherboard comes out benching against single slot CPU motherboards as this will still be only one motherboard but have two X4 CPU's on it?

I think this will be totally unfair for the general bencher that has limited funds as all these CPU's/GPU's should be put in there own bracket and receive the points for that bracket within Hwbot scoring system.

If this will be the case then it will be only about who has the biggest wallet of which is the case but this will make it even more so if this ruling is going to stand and will be a shame because i can see a lot of benchers out there just giving up as there will be know point in them benching due to this and the pricing of these new items.

This is meant to be a fun thing that we all take part in and enjoy doing, but when it starts coming down to who has the most money then it will just be like an F1 team who has the most money will always win of which we have all seen the boring days of Ferrari and most did not bother watching TV because they new who would win the race.

Coming from a Motor racing background yes it has always been about money who has the most wins,but there was different categories for different types of vehicle, the way you guys are putting this it is like saying lets race a 250cc Gokart against an F1, both has the maximum spent on them one has a two stroke twin cylinder engine and the other has a v10 engine in it,why would anyone compete because we all know that the F1 would win even if the Kart racer was a world champion and the F1 driver was a novice.

But it is not done this way as you might know there are many different categories within motor sport and each is awarded the maximum points in there own categories.

I personally think it would be a very good idea to have different categories/Price range of hardware and then award the given points for this categories, as someone on a very limited budget who can only afford the cheapest of parts can still be competitive in his own categories and be awarded the top points for this given categories, if this is not done as said i can see a lot of benchers just giving up the game as when the new Intel skull trail hits the market we all know this will be the winner and them who have the money to spend will wipe the floor with more experienced guys out there who just can not afford to purchase this new bit of kit.

So in a nut shell please make different categories for different hardware, Single card is a single card with one GPU on it, single card with two GPU's is two GPU benching ECT.

I hope i have made my points clear enough for all and for the goodness of this community and the fun involved please look into making these changes soon.

Many Thanks for taking the time to read this and taking on board what i have said.

Regards
Sacha

richba5tard

01-31-2008, 15:56

I personally think it would be a very good idea to have different categories/Price range of hardware and then award the given points for this categories, as someone on a very limited budget who can only afford the cheapest of parts can still be competitive in his own categories and be awarded the top points for this given categories, if this is not done as said i can see a lot of benchers just giving up the game as when the new Intel skull trail hits the market we all know this will be the winner and them who have the money to spend will wipe the floor with more experienced guys out there who just can not afford to purchase this new bit of kit.

So in a nut shell please make different categories for different hardware, Single card is a single card with one GPU on it, single card with two GPU's is two GPU benching ECT.

Don't you contradict yourself? First you say divide by price range, than divide by GPU count.

The HD3870X2 is the same price range, or cheaper, than a 8800GTX, but has twice the cores.

sacha35

01-31-2008, 16:06

Don't you contradict yourself? First you say divide by price range, than divide by GPU count.

The HD3870X2 is the same price range, or cheaper, than a 8800GTX, but has twice the cores.

Know contardition at all, all i am asking is make two sets, one for Price/GPU and CPU then how many cors an item has, it will mean a lot of work on you guys but this way it will make it fair for all, as this way it should suite all out there.

Massman

01-31-2008, 16:10

Know contardition at all, all i am asking is make two sets, one for Price/GPU and CPU then how many cors an item has, it will mean a lot of work on you guys but this way it will make it fair for all, as this way it should suite all out there.

I'm afraid that much competitions will make the hwboints useless, which is not what we want.

We should look for a good, yet easy and understandible solution :)

jmke

01-31-2008, 16:18

3870 X2 is a single card, not SLI/CF, end of story.

sacha35

01-31-2008, 16:31

I'm afraid that much competitions will make the hwboints useless, which is not what we want.
We should look for a good, yet easy and understandible solution :)

I agree with you Massman, but it should still be easy to do, what i am worried about is that we will see a decline in benchers because of the amount that they will have to part with just to be able to bench or even try and be competitive in this field, if this is not done i can see a fast decline in benchers around the world as the simply wont be able to afford the expense this will impose on them.

Yes as said it will mean a load of work from you guys with Code ECT, but i think you could have something great at the end of the day in each section by doing this, as everyone can then see what is the best in each of any given field with different hardwear used.

My early point about Motor sport said it all, everyone can have just as much fun and enjoyment from different categories this way as they will be competing on an even playing filed and at there affordable expense.

3870 X2 is a single card, not SLI/CF, end of story.

Yes single card but with two GPU's on it, what you are saying is not right, this is like saying a single engine car of 2000cc competing with a twin engine 4000cc car, only one car but one has two engines and the same goes for this new 3870x2 card as it has two engines on one PCB so this should not be put in the same categories as a single cad with one GPU as it only has one engine to process the information it receives.

Massman

01-31-2008, 16:53

Regarding different categories: that's what the Hardware Points are for ~ providing competition for one piece of hardware.

The main problem seems to be the global rankings here.

bazx

01-31-2008, 16:58

Today's top benchmark scores.

3Dmark 2006 - 24837 marks - CapFTP (Tecnocomputer.it) - [#1 in 3Dmark 2006 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 930/1080mhz [#1 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2006] )
102.7 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

3Dmark 2005 - 34481 marks - CapFTP (Tecnocomputer.it) - [#1 in 3Dmark 2005 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 931/1080mhz [#1 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2005] )
98.2 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

3Dmark 2003 - 78022 marks - CapFTP (Tecnocomputer.it) - [#1 in 3Dmark 2003 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 931/1080mhz [#1 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2003] )
95.2 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

3Dmark 2006 - 23587 marks - jimmyz (XtremeSystems) - [#2 in 3Dmark 2006 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 900/1060mhz [#2 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2006] )
82.1 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

3Dmark 2003 - 76450 marks - pro (i4memory.com) - [#2 in 3Dmark 2003 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 918/1098mhz [#2 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2003] )
76.2 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

3Dmark 2006 - 23392 marks - eleven (OutOfSpecs.Gr) - [#3 in 3Dmark 2006 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 855/955mhz [#3 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2006] )
71.9 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

3Dmark 2006 - 23121 marks - pro (i4memory.com) - [#4 in 3Dmark 2006 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 918/1098mhz [#4 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2006] )
66.6 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

3Dmark 2005 - 33132 marks - eleven (OutOfSpecs.Gr) - [#4 in 3Dmark 2005 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 855/955mhz [#2 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2005] )
64.3 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

3Dmark 2003 - 74568 marks - jimmyz (XtremeSystems) - [#4 in 3Dmark 2003 with a single graphic card] - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 900/1060mhz [#4 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2003] )
61.6 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

3Dmark 2006 - 22971 marks - Pt1t (OverCleX) - (Radeon HD 3870 X2 @ 918/1062mhz [#5 Radeon HD 3870 X2 in 3Dmark 2006] )
57.7 points - [ inspect ] - [ compare ]

how can all of these scores be single card when there are 2x GPU

it is wrong

these cards should not be in the single GPU rankings it just does not work

r1ch

01-31-2008, 17:27

how can all of these scores be single card when there are 2x GPU

it is wrong

these cards should not be in the single GPU rankings it just does not work

Baz, they're in the single card rankings...which at the moment is how it's differentiated.

The way of changing this is for the good folk here responsible for hwbot to be talked round into changing the system to differentiate by GPUs and not cards or sockets.

I know it's not a democracy here, and we're in massman and rich's hands, but I personally think this should go down to a vote.

Categorising system based on:
- Cards (i.e 8800GTX in same category as HD3870X2)
or
- GPUs (i.e HD3870X2 in same category as SLI 8800GT)

Massman

01-31-2008, 18:38

A poll might not a stupid idea, I'll work on it.

SF3D

01-31-2008, 19:23

Sometimes picture is better than thousand words.

http://www.aijaa.com/img/b/00097/1533431.jpg (http://www.aijaa.com/v.php?i=1533431.jpg)

1GPU / 2GPU = single cards
1 Core/ 4 Core = Single processors

Let's stop this nonsense now.

Categories based on sockets is much better solution at the moment. Simple is sometimes better! That's my opinion.

o polonos

01-31-2008, 19:32

One PCB = single card to me :)
If im gonna buy 3870x2 im gonna buy ONE card NOT TWO :)

Predator OCX

01-31-2008, 20:07

My 2 cents :)

i understand "frustration" of some users as Bazx, it's "unfair" seeing all your effort with LN2 and vmodded cards seen slaughtered by multiple core vgas, but this is the way it is i guess, it's not only reltaed to a component if it has more than one core in it, every new generation wipes out the former ones, we cannot fight against the Moore laws here

i see the X2 as a single card, ATI had a good call implementing two cores in one PCB, the card itself is not as expensive as others and right now it's the most powerful card in the market

and don't forget this happened yet before, 7950GX2 had even 2 PCBs and it was ranked in single card category, the same goes for multiple cores CPUs, you can not compete in 3D06 with dual cores or in wprime against 4 or more cores CPUs, yet it has never been spliited in different categories

my suggestion would be to redefine the algorithm and put more value in hardware rankings, assorting hwboints in order not to loose a lot of points for example in 2900XTs single or 8800 as soon as a new card hits the market and blows the scores off

saludos!

sacha35

01-31-2008, 20:08

SF3D

01-31-2008, 20:22

Ok Guys if this is how you feel just wait until the new Intel Skultrail hits the market, i hope we can keep this as a single motherboard then as it will wipe the floor with any single CPU'd motherboard.

Skulltrail doesn't change anything. For example 3DM06 can use only 4 cores. If you have eight or sixteen, only four of them are doing job. It will be single motherboard and basic system with huge computing power in multithreated tasks. No worries about that.

sacha35

01-31-2008, 20:54

demiurg

02-01-2008, 04:57

3D03: rankings below

It is the same situation as with 8800GTX 1,5 year ago or with 7950GX2 2 уеаrs ago.
Then G100/R700 will appear it will beat all "2GPUs"-card ;)

So I think there is no need to change rahkings

r1ch

02-01-2008, 11:23

One PCB = single card to me :)
If im gonna buy 3870x2 im gonna buy ONE card NOT TWO :)

So what about the 9800GX2 and 7950GX2 that has 2 PCB's? Do they go in a different section?

It is a little ambiguous.

As i've said multiple times before and not been challenged, I think it should be categorised by the number of GPUs.

Obviously that means a lot of work for rich, and i understand if he would rather just ignore this and keep things as they are.

I think it is a little unfair to have 3870X2 vs single gpu...and it's not like 'new tech vs old' because that would be like 8800 vs 7900 which deservedly gets beaten as it's a new architecture. This isn't new.

# of GPU's, or state your intentions and close the thread IMO.

SF3D

02-01-2008, 13:43

Nazar

02-01-2008, 17:45

If 7950GX2 was at single category, it is no doubt 3870X2 should remain as a single card.

r1ch

02-02-2008, 04:01

How it is unfair to have 3870X2? They are available to everyone who want to have them. When you can have two 3870X2 on same setup it will be Dual Card setup and there is own multiple card section for it.

No changes are really needed.

I don't feel bad, if my previous scores are beaten badly by new cards. It is part of this game. We all just have to accept that.

I never said it was unfair to have one, you need the whole sentence to get the context of my point.

I said it was unfair to have it vs a single gpu card.

That's all I, and I think baz, sacha and everyone else is saying.

Massman, if we can get that poll, I'm happy to go with the general concensus as long as the post that contains the polls makes it very clear what the differential is. :)

Thanks for all the constructive comments everyone :)

If 7950GX2 was at single category, it is no doubt 3870X2 should remain as a single card.

There is a well-known saying..."To cut off your nose to spite your face".

There's no point repeating a decision from the past just because you made a (potentially wrong) decision in the past.

Massman

02-02-2008, 10:03

r1ch;15440']Massman, if we can get that poll, I'm happy to go with the general concensus as long as the post that contains the polls makes it very clear what the differential is. :)

The poll should represent most of the HWBot community, so 2/3 should vote and in order to change things, I believe it's necessary to have 2/3 of the voters say yes on the change.

SF3D

02-02-2008, 13:30

r1ch;15440']I never said it was unfair to have one, you need the whole sentence to get the context of my point.

I said it was unfair to have it vs a single gpu card.

That's all I, and I think baz, sacha and everyone else is saying.

Single card is a single card. No matter how many gpu's are under the heatsink. Just quit arguing about this.

I don't want to sound rude, but this conversation is starting to get stupid. If there is multiple cores in procerssor, why graphics card should be any different.

Bench results with 2 x 3870X2 will go to SLI/CF section. That's the way it will be.

I have nothing more to say!

bazx

02-02-2008, 23:41

then we will have to play the game your way

jmke

02-03-2008, 10:09

and keep everything fair, good!

r1ch

02-03-2008, 14:09

Single card is a single card. No matter how many gpu's are under the heatsink. Just quit arguing about this.

Arguing is probably the wrong word - I'm promoting the discussion of the topic. It's something that needs to be discussed as there's a number of people with the same opinion.

I'm not trying to say a single card isn't a single card...that's like trying to say 2 + 2 =/= 4. I'm disagreeing with the use of the term 'card' as a category. I'm allowed to disagree. If the choice (by hwbot, by you, by vote or whatever) is continue with the current way I will respect that decision and this debate will be over.

From what others (Massman) are saying though, I don't think this debate is over, and I welcome that vote - obviously it would need to be advertised to attract attention (hwbot front page?).

Massman

02-03-2008, 15:02

r1ch

02-03-2008, 15:22

I don't have anything against a vote, but I don't think we need to make this bigger than it is. I have asked some MSN-contacts what their opinion is and it seems that most see this as single card and have no problem with it being dealed with as single card.

Don't get me wrong, if really necessary, I'll create a poll and see what the outcome is, but I don't know if it's necessary to take this frontpage news?

Front page news was a suggestion in order to draw in the number of people (2/3 of members) that you were requiring to get a good idea of their opinions, obviously this is completely your choice.

I think that vote might be a good idea anyway, just out of curiosity.

If the decision is to leave things how they stand then fair enough. Obviously a decision i don't agree with, but hey, that's life! :)

Keep up the good work Massman and co. :)

richba5tard

02-04-2008, 07:52

Added a poll to the topic, be sure to vote. I'll put a frontpage item about this. At least 30 people should vote, 2/3rd majority required to change the rules.

Nordling

02-04-2008, 10:08

single! It is a single card that uses one socket, so it should be treated like one.
+1

ncsa

02-04-2008, 10:58

Single Card, Single Slot .. :)

K404

02-04-2008, 11:29

Old technology, no improvement in any part of it. Doubled up to perform like CF, using Crossfire onboard. Without Crossfire, that card wouldnt be performing how it is.

If it was new architecture that performed like that, I wouldnt mind at all. Even if it was a native dual-core in one die.

Thats why I voted the way I did :)

K

maverik-sg1

02-04-2008, 12:21

I have watched this post with interest as it is an interesting debate with good discussion points on both sides.

I have to say that the only way 2gpu's should ever be considered single performance is if they were on one die (dual core but single GPU) and if there were two of them then it would be SLI or multi gpu - as this would be a evolutional path of GPU's in the same way as dual/quad core cpus have progressed.

To me its simple:

The HWBOT system should be based on the number of GPU's, not how many slots are used.

OR

The current technologies found in x2 and GX2 graphics cards are all multi GPU solutions with a SLI/Crossfire chipset installed (not built into the GPU's) - therefore, at best (given that they still have to split x16 PCI-E Slot into two 8x slots which may be hit performance) they should be considered as 'hybrid' SLI/Crossfire set-ups.

Slightly off topic - looking at the scores the new generation of X2 and GX2 GPU's bring, all the hype around how important it was to go from x8 to x16 PCI-E for bandwidth issues was a total crock.

r1ch

02-04-2008, 12:40

maverik-sg1

02-04-2008, 12:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazar
If 7950GX2 was at single category, it is no doubt 3870X2 should remain as a single card.

There is a well-known saying..."To cut off your nose to spite your face".

There's no point repeating a decision from the past just because you made a (potentially wrong) decision in the past.

I agree with rich here.

Just to say that it was not brought up as an issue before - does not mean it's not an issue and yes 7950GX2 should be added to the list of hyrbid SLI or multi GPU graphics cards.

# of GPU's on board is the only way to score this fairly :)

gradus

02-04-2008, 13:44

sli/crossfire.

voodoo, 6600GT DUO, 7950GX2....3870X2....
all this cards sli/cross tehnology -> sli/crossfire!

Shadowjump

02-04-2008, 14:09

It always been like this, bazx. The fastest card is at the top... no-one complained when the 8800U ruled the rankings.
Yeah, but the Ultra has 1 chip. I dont mind whos ruling the rankings as long as its one chip.
Why not put 2 Ultras as one card? ;/
2 chips are 2 chips. Who cares about the slots?
So if hypotheticaly they release 1 graphic card with half chipset and you use 2 of them to have 1, it ll be multiple cards? No, it will act as one.

Stocky

02-04-2008, 14:15

I actually think the two core cards should probably have their own hybrid (freak) ranking. As they are technically SLI/ Crossfire, the hardware and software officially call them that, so they are that.
However, they fit in one physical slot so they don't really fit in either category; but I personally feel that eveidence shows that they are closer to SLI/CF than single in hardware and performance so have voted that way :)

CapFTP

02-04-2008, 14:16

according to me the card is single.
I think is correct to consider only the numbers of slot used

(and no matter if actually I made some WR....everyone with that card can do it..:))

i think is just a generation change, as happened with conroe vs. AmD64 or similar

harleybro

02-04-2008, 14:19

As I stated in the comments it should be considered single. The performance of this card and 3870's in crossfire is differant. If they where identical clock for clock then maybe it should be considered crossfire. Changing the rules this late in the game would be a slap in the face to anyone purchasing one of these due to the results they where getting.

stummerwinter

02-04-2008, 17:41

Hard to judge..

But single and dual-core CPUs are also not splitted @ Pi / wPrime / PiFast...

So, single slot, single card...

r1ch

02-04-2008, 19:30

Hard to judge..

But single and dual-core CPUs are also not splitted @ Pi / wPrime / PiFast...

So, single slot, single card...

In reply to your post, I quote my reply earlier in the thread in relation to the 7950GX2.

r1ch;15440']If 7950GX2 was at single category, it is no doubt 3870X2 should remain as a single card.

There is a well-known saying..."To cut off your nose to spite your face".

There's no point repeating a decision from the past just because you made a (potentially wrong) decision in the past.

I fully stand by this statement. Just because something happened one way in the past, it doesn't mean it's automatically right. It may well have been the correct decision at the time, but now may be better to proceed in another direction.

That being said, look at what rich has already said about the CPU side of things....

Splitting up single/multi sockets cpu's is planned, k404.

If the fact that the CPU section isn't divided up was the sole justification for your point of view, then you obviously need to think again.

I agree if we divide up the CPUs, and then the GPUs as well, I agree it starts to become a royal PITA with regard to coding, points allocation etc etc, but IMO that would be the fairest way to do it.

It's obvious that this is all about hwboints and awards. Ultimately, those with the card are going to vote to keep it in the single category, as they can rack up the points by using a dual gpu card to get easy points at the top...you just need to look at some of the people who've voted to keep it in the single card category to notice that.

I'm gonna be watching the votes on this with interest, and let's see where it gets to in a few days. :)

richba5tard

02-04-2008, 20:25

r1ch;15539']
I agree if we divide up the CPUs, and then the GPUs as well, I agree it starts to become a royal PITA with regard to coding, points allocation etc etc, but IMO that would be the fairest way to do it.

Yes and no. We are planning to divide cpu by number of sockets used, not number of cores. :)

jmke

02-04-2008, 21:46

and that's the way it should be. Skulltrail should get its own category for example:)

regarding the VGA cards, if HD3870X2 is CF, what will happen if you put in 2x HD3870X2 ? Quad CF is in multi card, so it will be in the same category as the single X2.

No I'm sorry, the HD3870X2 should be ranked as a single card product, end of story:)

knopflerbruce

02-04-2008, 22:12

Yes and no. We are planning to divide cpu by number of sockets used, not number of cores. :)

Number of sockets is the same as number of pcie-slots for GPUs. 2 cores glued together to one CPU-pcb is the same as 2 GPUs "glued together" on one gpu-pcb IMO. I voted for 3870 x2 as a single card:)

o polonos

02-04-2008, 22:14

We can leave poll to talk ;)
Single card is the winner as i can see...

Maxi

02-04-2008, 22:25

bazx did you vote the way you intended?

Let me know, I'll fix it if needed.

knopflerbruce

02-04-2008, 22:27

We can leave poll to talk ;)
Single card is the winner as i can see...

How long does it run, btw? Before we have a winner I mean:) (seems obvious that it's going to be a single card, but who knows)

Oliver

02-04-2008, 22:32

bazx

02-04-2008, 22:38

bazx did you vote the way you intended?

Let me know, I'll fix it if needed.

no can you fix it for me maxi

many thanks baz

Maxi

02-04-2008, 22:40

Hard to judge..

But single and dual-core CPUs are also not splitted @ Pi / wPrime / PiFast...

Do you think this would be the same if all 2D benchmarks were multi-threaded, not just wPrime?

Predator OCX

02-04-2008, 23:47

IMHO it's single card all the way up, i already posted my pov in the other thread also

if you guys change it to CF/SLI rankings, then a lot of rankings should be altered aswell, I.E. 1x 2x and 4x cores in a chip in wprime and so on...

it's a new "generation" not itself as it's the same core as the 3870 , but ATI did their job implementing with success a hardware CF into a single PCB card, so it's single card in all terms, only it is dual core, why anyone complained about the 7950GX2? it's not only one but TWO PCBs for a card

it's moore law and nothing can be done for that, next gen of ATI/nVidia will kill the 3870X2 for sure, so why bother :)

saludos!

edit, lol it's indeed in this thread where i posted :p

sacha35

02-05-2008, 00:12

Skulltrail doesn't change anything. For example 3DM06 can use only 4 cores. If you have eight or sixteen, only four of them are doing job. It will be single motherboard and basic system with huge computing power in multithreated tasks. No worries about that.

and that's the way it should be. Skulltrail should get its own category for example:)

regarding the VGA cards, if HD3870X2 is CF, what will happen if you put in 2x HD3870X2 ? Quad CF is in multi card, so it will be in the same category as the single X2.

No I'm sorry, the HD3870X2 should be ranked as a single card product, end of story:)

Hi jmke, as you can see this has been sorted already and i Quote from what SF3D has said, (Skulltrail doesn't change anything) so i take it from what he has said this will stand as a one motherboard catagree as all the rest of the freely avalible motherboards, so as these words have come from one of your Moderators I take it this will stand as one Motherboard catagree and be lumped in with the rest of the CPU's.

Praz

02-05-2008, 00:19

If it is decided that the HD3870X2 is a two card solution what happens if a 2 PCB version is released. Will it be classified as a quad? Because a quad-core CPU has a performance advantage in benches like 3d06 and wprime users aren't forced to compete in a separate class.

The best rules are also the most simplistic, both in the present and with an eye towards the future. The classification of video cards as dictated by the current rules satisfies this. Crossfire and SLI should be decided by motherboard support and the number of physical slots required. If a single card is capable of running on a board without specific chipset support it should be classified as a single card.

Unfortunately, to stay at the top requires the continual purchase of the latest technology. This latest round of released and soon to be released video cards is no different.

pro

02-05-2008, 00:23

everyone has very different and understanding takes on this card,

my view is that, its as hard to manage as two cards, if not more,

have you tried lately trying to mount 2 pots to one of these cards, trying to troubleshoot which cards is holding you back, and everything that goes with it,

i think this should be in single card rankings, anyone that manages to run one of these on subzero has deserved their points!

cdawall

02-05-2008, 00:44

i agree with pro they deserve the points if they can get these to clock!

dinos22

02-05-2008, 01:53

i voted Xfire as it's two separate cores
same deal with upcoming nvidia card i reckon

HousERaT

02-05-2008, 02:35

I voted Crossfire. I think a new category should be developed for multi-core/multi-gpu cards.

r1ch

02-05-2008, 04:14

We can leave poll to talk ;)
Single card is the winner as i can see...

Frigging hell...18 hours gone and you're already calling a winner? :/// At least let this run for a few days, hell even a week before looking at the results.

That being said, if the trend continues, then it would appear as if more people want it as a single card, so I'll accept that.

What has seriously disappointed me is people like the guy I've quoted and also (off the top of my head) SF3D and jmke that seem to have very closed minds, not willing to even consider another person's point of view. I find this very sad.

Thank you to the rest of the hwbot team for everything they've done, and creating the poll that is reflective of a larger group of people and not just the select few who think their opinions are the only ones that counts.

anvil

02-05-2008, 06:02

I voted for Single Card ranking.

I think that the fact that there are two GPUs on this card is the evolution of the material. Dual Core CPUs are becoming the minimum configuration and the same thing will happen for graphic cards.

There is no difference in the ranking between single core CPUs, dual core CPUs and quad core CPUs ; Wprimes, and 3Dmark06 are dominated by people who own a more than quad core CPU solution. This will be like this until octo core solution arrive.

For the HD3870X2, it's the same thing, they are on the top of the ranking, but just before that, Geforces 8800 were at the top level. The ranking will evolve by its own when new graphic cards will arrive. CF of HD3870X2 exists so I think we have to consider that we can't do less than one HD3870X2 so it have to be considered as a single card solution.

Regards.

richba5tard

02-05-2008, 08:06

@[DR]r1ch: I'll leave the poll open till Sunday evening, a week should be enough to let those who care, vote.

jmke

02-05-2008, 11:36

Hi jmke, as you can see this has been sorted already and i Quote from what SF3D has said, (Skulltrail doesn't change anything) so i take it from what he has said this will stand as a one motherboard catagree as all the rest of the freely avalible motherboards, so as these words have come from one of your Moderators I take it this will stand as one Motherboard catagree and be lumped in with the rest of the CPU's.

Skulltrail is a dual socket system, in the future RB plans to split CPU results by socket, the Skulltrail system will go in the same ballpark as Xeons and Opterons:)

richba5tard

02-05-2008, 11:39

Indeed!

SF3D

02-05-2008, 12:36

r1ch;15569']What has seriously disappointed me is people like the guy I've quoted and also (off the top of my head) SF3D and jmke that seem to have very closed minds, not willing to even consider another person's point of view. I find this very sad.

I'm sorry that we have made you feel that way. It was not our intention.

We don't have closed minds. I have talked with other moderators and we all put this poll up. Of course we like to now what community think about these issues.

Closed mind or not, I don't see any easy solution to moderate these new rankings which would be based on amount of GPUs. So my opinion doesn't change :(

r1ch

02-05-2008, 14:00

@[DR]r1ch: I'll leave the poll open till Sunday evening, a week should be enough to let those who care, vote.

Fair enough :)

I don't think people have kind of understood the intentions of the poll...far too many references to C2D's and C2Q's which is a completely wrong comparison.

Dual cores and Quad cores are built as a single package on a single socket. The 3870X2 is in my eyes a dual socket card, with two 'sockets' allowing for two seperate GPUs. Yes, technically the card uses one slot.

From the front page comments...

Comment from Vak92
QX9650 - 4 cores - 1 CPU
3870X2 - 2 cores - 1 GPU
like 7950GX2...

Comment from AN7 OverClocker
wrong
Q9650 4 Cores 1 CPU
3870X2 2 Cores 2 GPU's

I fear people haven't understood the question.

I'm sorry that we have made you feel that way. It was not our intention.

We don't have closed minds. I have talked with other moderators and we all put this poll up. Of course we like to now what community think about these issues.

Closed mind or not, I don't see any easy solution to moderate these new rankings which would be based on amount of GPUs. So my opinion doesn't change :(

That's fair enough, and good to hear more of an explanation that just...

Single card is a single card. No matter how many gpu's are under the heatsink. Just quit arguing about this.

What do you think about the difference between a Core 2 Duo having two cores in one package under one heatsink in one socket...versus two GPUs both made independantly, stuck onto two serperate 'sockets' on a PCB with seperate RAM etc (more so with the 9800GX2)?

I see it in the following way

Single socket CPU (P4 631 / E6600 / QX9650) = Single GPU card (7600 / 8800 / 3870)

and then

Dual socket CPUs (AMD QuadFX, Skulltrail, Server stuff) = Dual GPU card(s) (3870X2, 2x 8800 in SLI , 2x 3870 in CF)

It's apparent there's a grey area in between where

3870X2 =/= 2x 3870 in CF

So, as others suggested, maybe a hybrid or freak category is needed for these single socket, multi gpu cards?

I don't know...I've talked enough, so I'll leave it all in your hands to make the final decisions :)

HousERaT

02-05-2008, 15:32

Out of curiosity, would it be that difficult to create new catagories for the hwbot staff?

anvil

02-05-2008, 16:26

r1ch;15595']Fair enough :)

I don't think people have kind of understood the intentions of the poll...far too many references to C2D's and C2Q's which is a completely wrong comparison.

Dual cores and Quad cores are built as a single package on a single socket. The 3870X2 is in my eyes a dual socket card, with two 'sockets' allowing for two seperate GPUs. Yes, technically the card uses one slot.

You are making a mistake, aren't you?

If in your eyes the 3870X2 is a dual socket card why the Intel quad core shouldn't be a dual socket too? It's not a native quad core it's only two dual cores juxtaposed...
The comparison between multicore CPUs and multicore GPUs is completely valid, because the GPU is living now the evolution the CPU has already known.

The only reason why people care about the ranking of this 3870X2 is its scores in benchmarks, there is no real other reason.

Like I've already said it's only evolution of our material. The crossfire ou sli won't be dead, when both the firms (Nvidia/AMD) will spread their dual gpu card on the market. You still can plug two 3870X2 cards in your motherboard.

Regards.

Margo Baggins

02-05-2008, 16:54

I dont think a comparison of the 3870X2 being a single card can be compared to the C2D's and C2Q's. The C2D's are multi threaded processors, so providing the 2nd, or 2nd 3rd 4th cores respectively, into one package. Where as the 3870X2 is using 2 entire singular cores, on there own sockets and implements the same crossfire technology as i am using with my 2900pro's. I agree, they have cramed it onto one PCB, and now there is a short version, it isnt too much bigger than any high end card. However the point still remains its using the same technology as a multi card set up. IT IS STILL CROSSFIRE. If it was a multi-threaded processor and could run it all through the same socket, i could see this as a generative shift in results, but this isnt, they are using the same technology, just implemented in a different means. IMHO.

EDIT: No idea why i have Oldguy932's signature?

anvil

02-05-2008, 17:20

I don't know much about the technical aspects for the connection between the two GPU on the 3870X2 board but in CPUs the connection between two cores (as in a C2D) is diferent from the connection between two CPU sockets on a motherboard or not? Or it's just shorter?

If we put 3870X2 boards (and the futures multi GPU graphic cards) in the CF/SLI ranking don't we take the risk of having - in the future - no new card in the single card ranking?

Margo Baggins

02-05-2008, 17:32

If we put 3870X2 boards (and the futures multi GPU graphic cards) in the CF/SLI ranking don't we take the risk of having - in the future - no new card in the single card ranking?

I cant see that happening, at least not in the near future. Infact i can see moving away from multi socket gpu's to multi-threaded gpu's, there are already rumours that this will be the case with R700 cards, but we will have to wait and see.

_LiteSpeed_

02-06-2008, 22:08

Its ironic how much fuss there is about this issue when even the Processors are all lumped together and no one has a problem with that....Quad and Dual cores.. Each in there own class. This one issue that falls in the middle grounds. Its not a single,,,Its not a double. Scores higher than a single...Doesn't score as high as a double. Looks like ATI through a wrench in HWbots engine and it can't adjust to handle it properly. So it asks us,,,.
Things need to be broken down to more specif categories.

jmke

02-06-2008, 22:40

HD3870 X2 > HD 3870 CF in most games FYI;)

there are already enough categories out there

_LiteSpeed_

02-07-2008, 04:42

It runs as a single and it can compete as a double.
This is how ATI has made it to survive.
You can't fairly judge it either way if you want to be fair.
It does not compete with the nvidia 8800s at all in a single configuration, and will only beat it with a dual setup. Now it gets worse when competing against
any 8800x2. Not even in the same league.

DeanClocked

02-08-2008, 14:24

the logical thing to do is to change the slots to how many core's the cards have, this ensures that cards are ranked against their own type ie. same amount of cores.

Ranking all cards in the two categories of single card/sli-xfire is an unsophisticated and unfair ranking. For those with a single core cards placing them up on a board against multiple GPU boards does not dignify their results as it is no longer 'the best single card' because there are now essentially 2 cards on the 1 board.

r1ch

02-08-2008, 18:04

HousERaT

02-08-2008, 22:14

r1ch;15773']QFT. I suggested using the number of GPU's in my first few posts. We'll see what happens...
I wonder how it would have turned out if there was a third option in the poll (in which a new category be created for these multi core, multi cpu graphics cards)? Maybe that kind of forward thinking is too innovative?

BigAndy

02-09-2008, 00:33

Sorry, I didn’t bothered to read all comments so apologies for not knowing everyone’s opinion…

I have to say that this is very sensitive topic and there was and will be different opinions but IMO there should be a separate entry on HWBOT for hybrid cards.

As from above you can understand that I didn’t cast my vote as I don’t agree with either option offered in poll.

victor89

02-10-2008, 15:54

one pcb = one card = single

NightRaven

02-10-2008, 20:09

its technically cf...

bottomline: it has 2 cores. nothing will change tt. it has TWO cores.

and as mentioned the category is SLI/CF. so what happened to cf? now a single card which has cf on it is rated single. so then what's the sli and cf cat for?

i vote sli/cf

_LiteSpeed_

02-11-2008, 00:07

And soon Nvidia will intro the 9600GT which is the same level as a single HD3870....
Slots, not cores for videocards

richba5tard

02-11-2008, 00:32

2/3rd of those who voted, chose single rankings, so we will not change the rules.

1/3rd is a large group that disagrees, but i see no other solution.

bazx

02-11-2008, 08:28

it will be some time before we see single gpu cards back in this group
with the power of these 2x cards

hwbot holds allot of power

the single gpu is dead

richba5tard

02-11-2008, 08:40

We have let the people make the choice, dramaqueen. ;) ;)

bazx

02-11-2008, 08:54

lol queen

right or wrong one thing is for sure

unless the next gen of single gpu cards are faster then the 2x no one will buy them

so you have taken control of the global benching market with this

manufacturers will be unable to sell single gpu cards to benching teams

richba5tard

02-11-2008, 08:57

I think it is very, very likely the next gen nvidia series will be much faster. Heck, i think even the G9x based 8800GTX/Ultra will be faster.

jmke

02-11-2008, 11:42

it will be some time before we see single gpu cards back in this group
with the power of these 2x cards

hwbot holds allot of power

the single gpu is dead

summer 2008.

_LiteSpeed_

02-13-2008, 01:01

As I said Nvidia is around the corner with the 9000 series witch will smoke ATIx2 again.
I don't know if HWbot has that much influence on the Graphics card market. ATIx2 for the price is fantastic deal for the performance.
Its about sales to them. They don't care about us unless they are not making a profit. This setup is in a new class all its own. By design,,,ATI,,for profit..
It is not in the same league or class of anything that has been standard.
Single, Crossfire, or SLI,,,So judge it fairly on facts, and not by what people think it should be.

MaSell

02-13-2008, 01:30

So now for global points we need strong sli/cf or x2. We can throw away single 8800 series card, cards with the fasters gpus on earth...

jmke

02-13-2008, 10:08

same can be said when 7950GX2 was launched, why is this such a big deal now

richba5tard

02-13-2008, 10:14

Because lot's of tweakers have recently invested in 8800GT(S)'s and can't be at the top, I assume. :D

pro

02-13-2008, 11:51

i dont think single gpu is dead, look at 3dmark2001 my favourite game, so far its dominated by single card, and this is argueably the most skillful 3d bench...

i agree its hard to keep up if you want to be on top, but does anyone really need to be on top, alot of the hardest to get scores are the ones at the top of popular classes, 2900s, gts, gt, if you can get scores at the top of this range, these people can be proud of their achievements

bazx

02-13-2008, 12:57

Because lot's of tweakers have recently invested in 8800GT(S)'s and can't be at the top, I assume. :D

i think you miss my point a little on this

there is a great deal of fun to be had benching the simplest setup

1xgpu and 1xcpu is the the most basic 3D setup that can be benched

and for that reason alone i would leave the 1xgpu in there own class

Predator OCX

02-13-2008, 13:09

What i see a bit of "unfair" and sorry for the OT, it's the fact of older scores being dramatically lowered in hwboints as soon as new gen kills the latest one

i see my 3D scores with single 8800 worthing a crap of 4 points at max :o , when i remember being 3rd only behind hipro and Vince in the single rankings, i put a lot of effort and LN2 in those runs and now i could get the same points benching two very very old CPUs at stock :S

i think more weight to the hardware hwboints should be addressed, especially those benchs with a lot of competition like 2900s or 8800GTX/Ultra

sorry for the OT :p