View Full Version : cheaters sucks..
660 4-4-4-4 ddr2 @ 2.5v pifast
1040 7-6-6-15 and 650fsb on p5e64 evo 32m stable
what are we ment to be stupid?
keep doing what you gotta do..it is what it is
James, who is pathetic in this case is actually you.
If the handpicked hardware sent you by manufacturers (Corsair, ASUS, Giga) can't reach certain frequency you claim it impossible, right?
As for the Vmem on the PiFast score, it was 2.61 actually (same as on other results) (it's actually read 2.608V by BIOS monitoring tool, I compared that tool with DMM reading on that board with lower Vmem and it's +/- 0.01v)
And why are you claiming that fsb650 is impossible on an ASUS X48 board if ... *cough, cough* ... you've hit similar FSB speeds yourself? :D
EDIT: oh, I get it, ASUS didn't send you a handpicked P5E64WS Evo yet, my bad :(
650 isnt impossible on asus x48 board, rampage extreme, on evo is highly unlikely..
oh its handpicked by asus and mem volts was 2.61... oh sorry forget i said anything, that explains it! carry on..
Um.. I get past 650 on my Evo as well, and that damn thing isnt even handpicked...
James, in case if you never had experience with P5E64 WS Evo and RampageExtreme - they are exactly same in terms of OC (not considering "gem" board factor), only that the Evo is less bling and less $ (me and mrlobber don't have multi kilo$ budget extra to spend on "bling")
The board was not handpicked in any way, it was originally bought from a German e-shop that doesn't give a damn about their customers. I DO NOT GET HANDPICKED HARDWARE DIRECT FROM MANUFACTURERS.
You need to learn a lesson (same as I did a while back): don't draw conclusions about hardware you've never owned :)
As for 660MHz CL4 with 2.61V, I have to admit, I have seen better mems ;)
You seem to be an extremely lucky guy.
You have the best CPU in the world by far.
You have the best DDR3 in the world by far. (tRAS 15 at 1040 is unheard of. I'll admit I've done similar speeds myself, but certainly not at such low tRAS...and completing a 32M run at over 2.3v??)
You have the best DDR2 in the world by far. (660 CAS 4 is not that difficult with the right pair, but at 1:1???)
You have the best P5E64 WS Evolution in the world by far (while good in its own right, this board behaves nothing like a Rampage at all. The FSB isn't so much an issue as it is the ram clocking, and not only that, anyone that's tried this on multiple X48's can attest that the 5:8 is extremely difficult at anything past ~620 normally, even if the ram is up to it. One would need well over 1.7v MCH to have a prayer of pulling off such a ram frequency, and even more still to get 5:8 working...)
You have the best Biostar T45 in the world
All of your scores seem plausible to me. What's so hard to stomach here is that you apparently had lightning strike four times in the same place.
knopflerbruce
11-05-2008, 16:26
What scores are being questioned here? I can't see any links...
PS: It's quite possible to find a few golden pieces of HW, if you know what to look for. And it's also possible that someone finds a nice tweak no-one else knows about.
We all know who gets the best "handpicked" hardware, so, let's follow the same principal and call them cheaters, shall we?You have the best CPU in the world by far.Well, I admit that I have spent a lot of time handpicking my CPU at the warehouse I used to work at, but I don't think I have the best one (boble and andre had 6.8G chips, jowi has 6.53G 32M "without pushing it much" chip)You have the best DDR3 in the world by far.the scores are irrelevant to the memory kit I was using. We could hit roughly same clocks with two other DDR3 sets I currently own. (those are not handpicked in any way)You have the best DDR2 in the world by far.No. I've seen multiple D9GMH sets that could do 600MHz CL4 32M at 2.35V DMM or lower (mine can't do that)You have the best Biostar T45 in the worldWhy do you think it's best? I reckon mine's one of the worst :D
Anyone, and I DO MEEN ANYONE who had put mch subzero could hit 650+ benchable.
What scores are being questioned here? I can't see any links...
PS: It's quite possible to find a few golden pieces of HW, if you know what to look for. And it's also possible that someone finds a nice tweak no-one else knows about.
These ones afaik http://korturl.dk/ujb (short link)
Well, I admit that I have spent a lot of time handpicking my CPU at the warehouse I used to work at, but I don't think I have the best one (boble and andre had 6.8G chips, jowi has 6.53G 32M "without pushing it much" chip)
No one has come close to 6.7GHz for 1M.
the scores are irrelevant to the memory kit I was using. We could hit roughly same clocks with two other DDR3 sets I currently own. (those are not handpicked in any way)
You must be the only one then, that speed at tRAS 15 is uncompletely unmatched.
No. I've seen multiple D9GMH sets that could do 600MHz CL4 32M at 2.35V DMM or lower (mine can't do that)
I myself had a pair that could do that. It still needed 2.8v for 660 4-4-4 1M, and that at 2:3 divider. 1:1 is MUCH harder.
Why do you think it's best? I reckon mine's one of the worst :D
Anyone, and I DO MEEN ANYONE who had put mch subzero could hit 650+ benchable.
Fine, I'll give you that.
And why didn't you address the board? That's the strangest thing here. An X48 that can do 1040MHz mem at ANY timings on 5:8 at 1.61v??? And of all boards, the P5E64 Evo which is especially weak in clocking memory??
At least understand why your results fall under scrutiny every time. They are always very very unusual in fashion. You always use strange hardware configurations and manage to hit unheard of speeds with it. (And always at efficiencies that no one else can match)
(e.g. Blitz Extreme at 610 PL8, 790i at 616 with P1/P2, 8800GTS at 1240 core, and let's not forget the magical 8MB cache E6400)
And now all of this. Maybe one aspect of any one score of yours might be possible to believe, but all of this coming from one person, time and time again?
I don't think you've ever once shown a "normal" benchmark score. Every score you've ever put up in the past two years has always had something very odd about it. No one else has ever done any scores that are even similar to the ones you do in nature.
I myself had a pair that could do that. It still needed 2.8v for 660 4-4-4 1M, and that at 2:3 divider. 1:1 is MUCH harder.not THAT much harder than you might expect. At least with TP45HP (you can ask anyone else if you don't trust me) going from 5-5-5-15 to tighter mem settings (like 5-4-4 or 4-4-4, if your mems can do that) doesn't hurt FSB by more than 2-3MHzAnd why didn't you address the board? That's the strangest thing here. An X48 that can do 1040MHz mem at ANY timings on 5:8 at 1.61v??? And of all boards, the P5E64 Evo which is especially weak in clocking memory??not ANY timings. at 7-6-5-18 the thing would not even POST. I find 7-6-6-15 the best in terms of stability/performance for benching at memspeeds over 1000MHz.
1.61Vmch = yes, not mistaken. It was the sweet spot for this specific board as X48 does not like high mch (unlike p35/p45)e.g. Blitz Extreme at 610 PL8, 790i at 616 with P1/P2, 8800GTS at 1240 core, and let's not forget the magical 8MB cache E6400- 600+ PL8 you can see these days from a Rampage Extreme which is based on a X48 chipset, which has worse FSB/tRD ratio than P35
- 790i at 616 ... well, you saw from couple of guys (jody/vince) that it IS possible, didn't you?
- 8800GTS at 1240core. There were people who ran 1200+ on dry ice and 1250+ on LN2. Why don't we accuse them in cheating as well? :D
- 4Mb to be precise. Back in early C2D days it was common that "white box" ESes had cache misread by CPUz.
This thread with all the name calling is going nowhere, IMHO.
If you got any concerns, please post them to hwbot crew and I'll be happy to work them through :)
I mean that no one has ever done such high memory speeds even at CAS 8 or whatever on the Evolution, let alone CAS 7. How are you doing such speeds at only 1.61v with a clearly stock cooled board according to your pics?
Vince has P1 and P2 off, with LN2 on the northbridge. Jody I believe did 600 flat for Everest with them on, also with LN2 on the northbridge, or single stage for his latest run.
As for 8800 GTS, I see no one even coming close:
http://www.hwbot.org/quickSearch.do?hardwareId=GPU_1255&name=GeForce+8800+GTS+512+Mb+%283974%29
elmor and no_name are the only ones pushing mid 1100's. Even 1100 is a struggle with this card normally. And somehow you got TWO that are 100MHz better than the best on that list.
We can go through this hardware by hardware, but you have had so much highly unusual hardware that it's clearly going to take a while.
I'm not calling you names or suggesting anything, just making some observations. And you're right, this is going to go nowhere. Again your scores theoretically don't seem impossible or anything, but when you sit down and look at all of these anomalies together it raises an eyebrow...you have gone through a lot of insanely cherry hardware for a guy that claims that none of it is even handpicked.
mrlobber
11-05-2008, 18:47
Heh, I even don't know what to think, especially youngpro's words. With all my respect to him for his past benching achievements, I guess, now for him probably the only bench worth benching looks like to be Vantage, because there you don't need much skill, and can run on newly sponsored hardware, the more pricey the better.
For the Evo, this is kiwi's previous board. He can confirm it run for him in the fsb 640ish range. If you don't believe him, then maybe let us call every overclocker from Latvia a cheater from now on, and that's it. At least that's what youngpro already did in the interview for the overclockers magazine back in the day.
Sorry, usually I don't participate in such discussions, but couldn't resist from flaming a little as well.
Gautam at least logically tries coming to a point.
First of all, this is not a lightning struck 4 times case. Guess what, why I put the description of Team Latvia under the scores? Because this is not Sam's only hardware, the Evo was mine, the Corsairs were mine as well. Now the lightning strike is 2 times smaller.
Some more proof:
A singlechannel DDR3 clocks validation on the Evo... not so bad, I think.
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=440599
A fsb validation:
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=440454
The E8600... oh well, I've got one retail sample - the only one E8600 I've ever got, which runs 32M 6400 dead stable. Now that would put me already on like top5 in the 32M HoF if I wanted. Damn luck, considering my usual bought hardware crappiness... but even according to probability theory in a long term something like this might happen. Well, Sam's one is even better... yes, it subsequently can run the CPU benches faster. Anyway, the next owner of this cpu (as far as I know Sam's intention to sell it) will be able to confirm it.
Cannot comment on Biostar, as this is not my board and Sam did all the tweaking / investigation on it. That ghetto chipset pot helps though.
Touching the past a little, for the 8800GTS...To my knowledge, Sam still has one of these two with him? Buy it, and see it for yourself.
Now the EVGA board didn't want to run in my hands nowhere as good as in Sam's hands... If not for the corruption stuff (yes, even with the latest bioses), the EVGA would still be with me, and I'd gladly let it be investigated by those wondering about the magic.
But I acknowledge my skill not being close to Sam's, giving the time and devotion he has invested in overclocking in the past 3 years, I'd say, on average 4+ hours a day lol. And it eventually pays off (although obviously also earning you a "cheater reputation" as well).
You know, I'd be all for a third party confirming that that board and memory combination can indeed do 650MHz 5:8 7-6-6-15 for 32M. (Even if it's at a low CPU speed)
two 8800gts over 1200 in sli
790i 616fsb with p1/p2
evo that clocks ram past 1030 32m
ddr3 passing 32m past 1040mhz tas15
ddr2 passing 32m 1:1 past 660mhz cas4
e8600 1m near 6.7ghz
buy a lottery ticket dude because yous one lucky guy
Predator
11-06-2008, 11:52
i feel a lot of envy here
just face that they are able to bench like that and move on
it's very easy to sit down behind a monitor and throw out free accusations
yet you will demand proof on these scores as always :p
I heard than TaPaKaH will be in Russia in the end of November...Well....It will be GOOD idea if he could take this MAGICAL CPU and bench it there at 6700MHz in front of the audience.... No?.... :)
That way he could prove that he is right... :)
And the board and memory too :p
cmon guys
its not kindergarden uh?
beg up
I don't have a strong opinion on this...yet...as I said, for the clocks all the scores look about right to me...I'm with hipro though, if he can reproduce similar overclocks live, it'll ease our minds and put the topic to rest.
understandable
but i reckon it will be quite hard if we now need to travel around the world, if we sometimes put questions to scores, is it just me or?
George, I wanted to go to HIT but it's incompatible with my wallet/university schedule.
All those ASUS/Giga/MSI comps organised - I couldn't take part. Partly, because of age restrictions (just turned 18), partly due to living in a country those brands are not bothered about.
I'll go to CeBIT 2009 (already booked cheap airline tickets to Hannover) if I can find a cheap place to stay :)
Maan, modern OC community really sucks.
As it turns out, it is illegal to tweak, it is illegal to have good hardware/handpick ... looks like the only opportunity to survive is by "quantity" (spending lots of kilo$ on Vantage rigs) ... until someone says "meh, I can't believe you can afford this stuff, you cheat", LOL.
Wallet problem is discussible ;)
knopflerbruce
11-06-2008, 23:40
Wallet problem is discussible ;)
It's easy to solve - those who don't believe in the scores pay for the trip etc etc etc:)
hipro made a good suggestion
you should definitely bench in public to put ppls minds at ease
because we all know OC is very predictable and repeatable and never much about luck or patience
George, I wanted to go to HIT but it's incompatible with my wallet/university schedule.
You really should come there. I think the organizers can make that happen.
If money isn't problem, you can come?
I will be there and it would be cool to see how you do your benchmarks. I'm not talking about reproducing scores, but you could show how well these parts can overclock in our hands.
I think some people might think that I'm trustworthy person and If I believe, that your benching and scores in HIT 2008 are real, that would make your life easier.
Think about it ;)
I bet that he will not come..... :)
Reminds me of "another" person doing such things without providing real evidence NEVER till now.... ;) :)
Do NOT expect him to Russia.... ;)
BAD thing though is that I thought that mrlobber was decent... :(
When he moved to the "other" forum, their "master" have manipulate them with some kind of brain wash, to cheet... :(
Great idea, SF3D ;)
I bet that he will not come..... :)
Reminds me of "another" person doing such things without providing real evidence NEVER till now.... ;) :)
Do NOT expect him to Russia.... ;)
BAD thing though is that I thought that mrlobber was decent... :(
When he moved to the "other" forum, their "master" have manipulate them with some kind of brain wash, to cheet... :(
With all respect to who you are:
http://archives.zinester.com/62028/95515/142742_CheeseWithThatWhine.jpg
Great idea, SF3D ;)
With all respect to who you are:
http://archives.zinester.com/62028/95515/142742_CheeseWithThatWhine.jpg
I'm none....Just an Internet person... ;)
....and I didn't acctually understand that photo you have uploaded... :(
To whine = moaning, bitching around
Whine = a alcohol-containing drink which (in france) is often accompanied by cheese as some sort of snack.
I'll be in Russia as well, by the way ;).
I'll be in Russia as well, by the way ;).
....and IF you see by chance TaPaKaH, tell him hi by me.... :D
knopflerbruce
11-07-2008, 18:39
I bet that he will not come..... :)
Reminds me of "another" person doing such things without providing real evidence NEVER till now.... ;) :)
Do NOT expect him to Russia.... ;)
BAD thing though is that I thought that mrlobber was decent... :(
When he moved to the "other" forum, their "master" have manipulate them with some kind of brain wash, to cheet... :(
It's not mrlobber's responsibility to prove that he's innocent, so he really shouldn't have to travel around the globe proving stuff. Those who want to see the results should come to his place.
I thought he shared a couple of validations that supported his clocks:confused:
Predator
11-07-2008, 19:22
oh this is so funny, now i feel an exponential growth of envyness floating around :D
keep "surprising" me
[B]I bet that he will not come..... :)
Reminds me of "another" person doing such things without providing real evidence NEVER till now.... ;) :)
Hey George, how much would you pay for a set of DDR3 that does 1040 7-6-6-15 for 32M, and a board that does 650 FSB along with it? Shall we get the bidding started? :D
BenchZowner
11-07-2008, 20:25
It's not mrlobber's responsibility to prove that he's innocent, so he really shouldn't have to travel around the globe proving stuff. Those who want to see the results should come to his place.
I thought he shared a couple of validations that supported his clocks:confused:
Validations mean nothing.
It can be "hacked" relatively easy.
Hey George, how much would you pay for a set of DDR3 that does 1040 7-6-6-15 for 32M, and a board that does 650 FSB along with it? Shall we get the bidding started? :D
1 kidney down :p
Brian y.
11-07-2008, 20:40
With all respect to who you are:
http://archives.zinester.com/62028/95515/142742_CheeseWithThatWhine.jpgwell said:)
Predator
11-07-2008, 20:49
Validations mean nothing.
It can be "hacked" relatively easy.
1 kidney down :p
if validations mean nothing then hwbot shall pull off all cpuz scores right?
@ the rest of "supporters" why don't anyone of you fly Latvia and watch Sam benching off, if he cheats i will cover all expenses plus a 10%
or maybe you are afraid of been brainwashed as well :D
cmon guys beg up
i tought we where at hwbot not kinderbot uh?
obviously, Sam have access to alot of hw which give him some nice stuff for sure, but the most important things is:
to know how to play it
lets think back on the the fast and the furious:
its not how you stand by your car
its how you drive you car
same goes with hw, its not look what i got, but its how u play it
Ive had enough of this bullshit, honestly. How would you like it if we called you and your team cheaters every time you submitted a bench and made a big scene about everything you do? It is getting old, you are a grown man, act like it.
I can see reporting a result and discussing the validity of it, that is fine. Attacking the whole forum implying everyone is cheating and such is not acceptable. Like you, we take hwbot competition very seriously and it is not fair to make comments like this.
BAD thing though is that I thought that mrlobber was decent... :(
When he moved to the "other" forum, their "master" have manipulate them with some kind of brain wash, to cheet... :([/B]
BenchZowner
11-07-2008, 21:03
if validations mean nothing then hwbot shall pull off all cpuz scores right?
I just said that CPU-z validations can be altered ( faked ).
Everybody knows that, and I know lots of people who can do it ( if they really wanted to ).
I bet I can do it too, but I don't.
Can you guarantee that nobody is doing it though ?
Predator
11-07-2008, 21:22
I just said that CPU-z validations can be altered ( faked ).
Everybody knows that, and I know lots of people who can do it ( if they really wanted to ).
I bet I can do it too, but I don't.
Can you guarantee that nobody is doing it though ?
i know what you meant, and hence i keep thinking they should be pulled off if it's that easy to fake
it might be relatively easy to fake a score, if so, no one is safe to be questioned free
the key is we are then bound to honesty, the point is the cheating accusements are always thrown by the same guys, i don't remember any of us calling cheat anyone else, EVER
knopflerbruce
11-07-2008, 21:23
I just said that CPU-z validations can be altered ( faked ).
Everybody knows that, and I know lots of people who can do it ( if they really wanted to ).
I bet I can do it too, but I don't.
Can you guarantee that nobody is doing it though ?
Sure, you can fake validations. The only thing that can't be faked is if someone is watching;) Perhaps we need a new rule, global top 5 scores must be approved by x number of other users that are not friends or members of the bencher's team.
There is no proof of cheating here, only some (very) high clocks. Why bother cheating for a 2nd place, btw? Obviously there is another dude who has better HW than mrlobber. If this score is so unbelieavable, then how could it be just 2nd? If the memory and CPU are both beyond any imaginable limits?
George_o/c
11-07-2008, 21:26
I just said that CPU-z validations can be altered ( faked ).
Everybody knows that, and I know lots of people who can do it ( if they really wanted to ).
I bet I can do it too, but I don't.
Can you guarantee that nobody is doing it though ?
Οf course you can't ... it's getting ridiculous though ... How are we ever going to know if something is valid or not ...
Validation ---> can be hacked
Screenshot ---> can be edited/photoshop-ed
Video ---> Cheat program could easily run at the "background", without being spotted
:(
Okay, I think we've seen and said enough about this.
From what I understand of this discussion, the main problem is the fact that Team Latvia (Tapakah, MrLobber and Kiwi) always seems to have very, very good hardware to bench with, be it either videocards, processors, memory kits or motherboards. If I understand correctly, the actual scores are not being questioned, nor are the actual frequencies that have been achieved on that particular hardware; it's a matter of 'too much good hardware for one person', especially since those persons claim not to have handpicked hardware.
Now, let me clear up the term 'handpicked' as I think we're using different definitions here. If Tapakah refers to handpicking, he means hardware that has been selected by the manufacturer and send to a bencher in order to achieve outstanding frequencies. Pro and Gautam probably use the definition to handpick equals to select one out of many samples, which is very different from the definition Tapakah uses. In the first one, you only have one piece of hardware that you work with: the very good overclocking cpu/vga/memory/motherboard; in the second definition you have to pretest very much hardware in order to FIND the best overclocking one.
As far as I know (I didn't check it myself), Tapakah has worked in the warehouse of an hardware distributor at the RMA department. If that's true, he would have acces to A LOT OF hardware, which he could pretest anytime he wanted to. Considering the amount of time he spends on overclocking, from what I've heard from MrLobber, it wouldn't come to a surprise to me if he indeed has spent that much time on pretesting the hardware. Now, this process can be called handpicking hardware, if you use the second definition, no? Furthermore, chances of finding the golden hardware would raise quite a bit. In addition, it's a known fact that not all the hardware is Tapakah's, which means that lightning didn't struck at the same place every single time.
BUT, even if we rule out the hypothesis of the incorrect definition, the scores still look valid, as there are no scores that are really out of line, as Gautam already said. Therefor, it would seem a little drastic and in fact way over the top to consider the results as cheated and invalid, as we only have a limited amount of tools which we can use to identify a cheat. Statistics can be used to raise questions, but cannot be used to convict a person. As already said, there is a way to decrease the questions raised about the legitimacy of Team Latvia's scores, namely bench in public. The longer this is postponed, the longer people will have questions, obviously, so I would ask Sam to think about HIT again. As far as I know, the people who organise the bench session at HIT can help you to come and university schedule ... well, skipping a few lessons shouldn't be that bad (:p). I see you have plans on visiting Cebit09, so hopefully we will actually meet there.
Regarding the other comments:
- Unlike what some persons apparenly think, being a member of the OCX Team does not make to a cheater and the membership can not be used as an argument in this kind of discussion.
- Although everyone has the right to question a score, I would still very much stress the fact that we are on a public forum and therefor should be polite. Behave, behave, behave!!
- Yes, we all know that benchmarks can be cheated ... I think we also know that people do actually cheat, just like you'll find people cheating in every sport. I believe that the correct question is not "How can we cheat", but "how can we reduce the number of cheaters"
because we all know OC is very predictable and repeatable and never much about luck or patience
you know what i mean
why do you post such a smartass comment
mrlobber
11-07-2008, 23:59
BAD thing though is that I thought that mrlobber was decent... :(
When he moved to the "other" forum, their "master" have manipulate them with some kind of brain wash, to cheet... :(
Hipro, thank you for opening my eyes to the thing how easy people change their "sides" based on things they think the "next morning" without having any evidence.
To your knowledge, I've been an OCX member almost from the very beginning of that forum when it had like 50 or less registered users (even before the server crashes which occurred through the last year). Though, I've never spammed around much, and have always tried not to remain blindly one sided in conflicts which boiled around previously. You can easily see that if you look back around in the past. And I've never spoken with OPB even on MSN, not to mention phone or real-life meeting. Thus, he obviously must have possession of some transcendental powers for being able to brainwash other minds over disances larger than several thousand miles...
Anyway, some of you have just made my final decision of quitting OC so much easier. In a benching world where multi thousand $ worth rigs dominate in Vantage (making competitive benching hardly achievable for people not owning their own serious business), and 2D benchmarks are the last-gasp-of-fun left for people which are neither millionaires nor directly/indirectly sponsored by h/w manufacturers, if a result which isn't even a WR, is readily called a "cheat", without any ability (because, as you say, "validations can be faked", "videos can be faked", "h/w clocks can be faked") to prove the opposite, it eventually doesn't come down to proof and logic, but some mysteriously driven belief of almost religious roots. This especially scares me by looking in the past when my country was forced to live under similar-principle belief systems for 50 years, when anyone could be named "enemy of the motherland" without any chance of proving the opposite, because, for the NKVD, MVD, KGB (whichever name that organization carried at particular times), the proof (even if it existed) actually never mattered. What mattered was that, using the classic Orwell's quote, "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others", and you usually happened not to be in that "more equal" category.
I don't see my place in such a world.
It looks like me & Sam are now almost-the ultimate cheaters. Obviously, we are the first intelligent cheaters who could fake any cpu/gpu speed while being able to fake the scores so that they still would look "reasonable" enough. But we're still not perfect, and, just like usual criminals, have ignored some small details which have lead us to being caught red handed. Because the ultimate cheat would be to get these clocks lower (so that no accusations of "lottery hardware" followed), fake the results a little bit worse, so that the 32M WR, for instance, would be beaten by 0.1 second only, and then safely claim this new achievement as the result of many hours hard benching. That's what we're working on right now, and then you'll not be able to prove anything, MUAHAHAHAHAA
Or even, perhaps this is the best time to start faking Vantage scores (since we can reproduce any validation output, we could claim having a Quad Crossfire rig, and start faking 3D results as well to eventually put that crap 3D bench back in the abyss it originally came from).
You probably know kiwi from XS. Now list him in the cheaters category as well (sorry kiwi if it indeed happened, but it is inevitable anyway, I guess). After all, he has also benched together with Sam (though not for WR's), and we've met and sold various hardware each other virtually hundreds of times. So he must be "infected" with the "virus", or "brainwashed", if speaking hipro's words. Oh, and btw, both that EVGA board as well as the Asus came to me from him. Suspicious, eh?
/sarcasm mode off
This is my last intelligent post on the matter. From now on, I'll eagerly wait for the moment when I'm going to be able to put a big fat middle finger right in the face of several name-calling people at the second, when it will eventually be proven that these scores were not faked. Now of course, I'm expecting the same from everyone if the opposite were somehow "proven", and I would not be insulted by such an attitude then. Right now I am though.
And by the way, so far it looks like for several people it is much more convenient to continue posting "cheater" stuff from their comfortable chairs than to actually try and do anything on that "public bench" to really happen.
One more thing. Hipro, stand up for the words you said about OCX or take them back. It is fine if you have your own negative opinion on particular people (including probably me from now on), however, implying what you said about a whole forum / team is a different story. Yourself, I doubt, you would like it if somebody gave similar comments about the Greek team. And don't worry about my blindness, I'd have said what I just said also if you would have said it about XS or any other forum I've been a member of.
Other than that, come over to Latvia this winter or next spring / summer (this is a general invitation not addressed directly to hipro). There won't be any overclocking championship or anything like that because, as a small market, Latvia doesn't interest any of the big hardware companies (moreover, they would want us benching 3D (read = Vantage) for PR, which we don't want). However, perhaps for some mysterious reason the companies still might find it fun to sponsor you a trip to our country. What I can promise, beer is really tasteful here, although myself, I prefer rum better, since beer usually gets me headache only. And with the economic recession in full speed soon, the overinflated local prices will be falling down here soon too, and every tourist will be welcomed much warmer than before. This is a nice and beautiful country, you'll see, and although bad people can be found everywhere, there aren't, and won't be any cheaters anywhere near either my living room, or Sam's place at the other side of our capital city, Riga. You'll see.
you know what i mean
why do you post such a smartass comment
you're assuming that great bench results are easily copied and done in public with results there to show for. you're assuming wrongly, it's not a smartass comment, it's irony, look it up. making him bench "in public" doesn't change anything; I see no reason to force somebody to travel hundreds of kilometers just to lay some internet gossip to rest
so you think that i never benched in public lol and have no experience in benching :confused:
tapakah has at least 5xcomponents with him still that will very easily prove the legitimacy of his scores. I didnt say he had to do the same scores...not at all...but with such great pieces of hardware he should easily be able to show their potential...very easily...as its not just one piece of hardware but many....surely at least one of them will be able to do the clocks/settings/frequency claimed
surely with a few days of benching in russia and some of those components it should be pretty easily achieved
you are the one ass-u-m-ing
that is exactly what I said Dinos, yes I said you never benched in public
you can find that piece of info right here:
you're assuming that great bench results are easily copied and done in public with results there to show for. you're assuming wrongly, it's not a smartass comment, it's irony, look it up. making him bench "in public" doesn't change anything; I see no reason to force somebody to travel hundreds of kilometers just to lay some internet gossip to rest
and of course I also said in the text above that you have no experience in benching. of course.
Predator
11-08-2008, 01:12
Hipro, thank you for opening my eyes to the thing how easy people change their "sides" based on things they think the "next morning" without having any evidence.
To your knowledge, I've been an OCX member almost from the very beginning of that forum when it had like 50 or less registered users (even before the server crashes which occurred through the last year). Though, I've never spammed around much, and have always tried not to remain blindly one sided in conflicts which boiled around previously. You can easily see that if you look back around in the past. And I've never spoken with OPB even on MSN, not to mention phone or real-life meeting. Thus, he obviously must have possession of some transcendental powers for being able to brainwash other minds over disances larger than several thousand miles...
Anyway, some of you have just made my final decision of quitting OC so much easier. In a benching world where multi thousand $ worth rigs dominate in Vantage (making competitive benching hardly achievable for people not owning their own serious business), and 2D benchmarks are the last-gasp-of-fun left for people which are neither millionaires nor directly/indirectly sponsored by h/w manufacturers, if a result which isn't even a WR, is readily called a "cheat", without any ability (because, as you say, "validations can be faked", "videos can be faked", "h/w clocks can be faked") to prove the opposite, it eventually doesn't come down to proof and logic, but some mysteriously driven belief of almost religious roots. This especially scares me by looking in the past when my country was forced to live under similar-principle belief systems for 50 years, when anyone could be named "enemy of the motherland" without any chance of proving the opposite, because, for the NKVD, MVD, KGB (whichever name that organization carried at particular times), the proof (even if it existed) actually never mattered. What mattered was that, using the classic Orwell's quote, "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others", and you usually happened not to be in that "more equal" category.
I don't see my place in such a world.
This is my last intelligent post on the matter. From now on, I'll eagerly wait for the moment when I'm going to be able to put a big fat middle finger right in the face of several name-calling people at the second, when it will eventually be proven that these scores were not faked. Now of course, I'm expecting the same from everyone if the opposite were somehow "proven", and I would not be insulted by such an attitude then. Right now I am though.
And by the way, so far it looks like for several people it is much more convenient to continue posting "cheater" stuff from their comfortable chairs than to actually try and do anything on that "public bench" to really happen.
One more thing. Hipro, stand up for the words you said about OCX or take them back. It is fine if you have your own negative opinion on particular people (including probably me from now on), however, implying what you said about a whole forum / team is a different story. Yourself, I doubt, you would like it if somebody gave similar comments about the Greek team. And don't worry about my blindness, I'd have said what I just said also if you would have said it about XS or any other forum I've been a member of.
Other than that, come over to Latvia this winter or next spring / summer (this is a general invitation not addressed directly to hipro). There won't be any overclocking championship or anything like that because, as a small market, Latvia doesn't interest any of the big hardware companies (moreover, they would want us benching 3D (read = Vantage) for PR, which we don't want). However, perhaps for some mysterious reason the companies still might find it fun to sponsor you a trip to our country. What I can promise, beer is really tasteful here, although myself, I prefer rum better, since beer usually gets me headache only. And with the economic recession in full speed soon, the overinflated local prices will be falling down here soon too, and every tourist will be welcomed much warmer than before. This is a nice and beautiful country, you'll see, and although bad people can be found everywhere, there aren't, and won't be any cheaters anywhere near either my living room, or Sam's place at the other side of our capital city, Riga. You'll see.
mrlobber, i would have say the same as you stated here, if my english wouldn't have suck so bad as it current does :D
the only thing i would change is the part of quiting, bro, don't give up just cause others think you cheat ;)
btw, i still think the Predator would kick ass badly your chainsaw holder making autostop anytime :D
of course i benched in public many times :confused:
here is an example of my first big bench
big show (ATOMIC Live...one of the biggest in australia)
massive audience
our LN2 tank was damaged and we had 7L of LN2 or something stupid like that to try and pull off some OCs
one of my first LN2 bench sessions
i never took this CPU to LN2 before personally but i knew it was a good overclocker
We(me/pro/moloko) did one of the highest ever frequencies for 32M on second go (first run crashed(superpi shot off) on 8th loop...we actually cold bugged it...YES we didnt even test for cold bugs :rolleyes:) with a lot of ppl watching including our main Intel contact who we just met not long before that who was going to hopefully start helping with hardware.....we only received this mobo the day before and did some quick FSB tests on DICE just to make sure we can do at least 550 which i was hoping to achieve......only moments before main show which was even scheduled for a certain time...So we had a specific time windows when we had to do this as well
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=163000
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/8307/552032m20superpibbbbbaldm0.png
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/9062/dinos22teamau032kk3.jpg
it was not a tweaked run but to pull of that frequency with a few litres of LN2 with such pressure is not a small task
i've done a lot of stuff before and after that including TV shows....
i know all about pressure benching
and where does anyone claim otherwise ???
my point is
he has lots of hardware which he benched with in the past that EVERYONE would consider gems
one of those will be able to reproduce these results
if it does I AM CONVINCED
very simple
and all I'm saying is that benching and good results is large part luck of the draw, timings and patience, things were are not easy to control in a public area.
and all I'm saying is that benching and good results is large part luck of the draw, timings and patience, things were are not easy to control in a public area.
5 different pieces of his OWN hardware
and a few days in russia whether during the show or not
that is PLENTY of time to pull off something decent
tapakah's results indicated that he is a supreme bencher with great troubleshooting experience....i dont know what your experience is like benching like this jmke but these results say a lot about the bencher as they do about kingpin, MM, hipro and others that are on top
let me know if kingpin, MM, hipro and others that are on top make their best scores in public events or on their own at home in their own country/setting ;)
are you arguing for the sake of arguing or a little slow
did i say that he has to provide his best scores
look at the specific pieces of information provided in the thread
we are talking about for example just bein able to run RAM at 660MHz 4-4-4- 2.5vdimm stable on that Biostar board
that results is repeatable very very easily if the hardware really is capable of that
if it isnt it will be easy to find out
i am not saying he has to do the same times dumbass
personal attacks... nice going, wasting my time on your smart ass, unable to grasp that asking somebody to perform his little dance before a live audience is out of the ordinary; instead of accusing people, you should find better things to do with your time.
it's crap like these threads that make HWbot into a kindergarten.
yes you are frustrating me with your ridiculous comments
you need to sit down and think about what someone writes before you shoot off your mouth. it will probably make a conversation a lot more civilised
Predator
11-08-2008, 01:53
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/9062/dinos22teamau032kk3.jpg
you don't need much more of an incentive with those "bring it" at the event huh :D
:nana::nana::nana::nana::nana:
damn it i knew someone would figure out my secret :D
i am certainly not accusing all of ocx,
it seems this issue will never be resolved...
dont get the wrong picture, this isnt about envy as its been made to be believed. this is about the fact one individual posses so many pieces of hardware that are unmatched in raw mhz..
if sam really does have all these pieces of hardware he claims to, then let us all learn from him and his binning processes as hes doing really well..
if he doesnt, and something else is going on, then so be it, thats something only he really knows, do what you gotta do man
Anyway, some of you have just made my final decision of quitting OC so much easier. In a benching world where multi thousand $ worth rigs dominate in Vantage (making competitive benching hardly achievable for people not owning their own serious business), and 2D benchmarks are the last-gasp-of-fun left for people which are neither millionaires nor directly/indirectly sponsored by h/w manufacturers, if a result which isn't even a WR, is readily called a "cheat", without any ability (because, as you say, "validations can be faked", "videos can be faked", "h/w clocks can be faked") to prove the opposite, it eventually doesn't come down to proof and logic, but some mysteriously driven belief of almost religious roots. This especially scares me by looking in the past when my country was forced to live under similar-principle belief systems for 50 years, when anyone could be named "enemy of the motherland" without any chance of proving the opposite, because, for the NKVD, MVD, KGB (whichever name that organization carried at particular times), the proof (even if it existed) actually never mattered. What mattered was that, using the classic Orwell's quote, "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others", and you usually happened not to be in that "more equal" category.
I don't see my place in such a world.
If I remember correctly, you were one of the people who actually worked in the CDT-thread over at XS, no?
Anyway, the fact that you're quitting the overclocking scene partially because multi-dollar Vantage rigs rule the world has nothing to do with the actual money you have to spend on your rig, but has everything to do with what goals you set for yourself in this overclocking community. If you're aiming for top spots in every benchmark, then yes, the multi-doller Vantage rigs will mess things up for you pretty badly, assuming you will not find any source of hardware besides your own pocket. If you, on the contrary, aim for having fun in overclocking, it's pretty easy to have a lot of fun overclocking ... very easy in fact. I have at the moment the gear to aim for top spots in some global rankings: E8600 with excellent stepping and a 4870X2. But instead, I rather spend my time hunting for sub30s 1M with my Athlon XP ... weird no? And I promise you, when I've finally broke 30s, I'll probably start benching my Asrock AGP motherboard, for which I bought an X6800. It's all a matter of personal objectives.
Now, I do know what comment will follow: Hwbot doesn't allow people to bench in old hardware categories, because the big points are only to find in the global rankings. Well, we are actually working on a new hwboints system that would hand out more points to excellent old hardware overclocks. From the moment RB gives me approval to post the suggestion in public, you'll know what it's about.
Next there's the rather incorrect analogy of the KGB-alike instances. I think it's more than normal, at least these days, that scores can be questioned and discussed, which is in fact completely the opposite of what you like us to believe. There's room for discussion and doubt, which is not the fact in what you say. There's a giant difference between being accused and being convicted here, please understand that. If you have indeed no place in such world, namely the overclocking scene, than you will have a hard time anywhere else as well. Everywhere in this world, when someone is better than the rest, people will question that person and his results. Jezus supposed to do miracles, but I know many people, including me, have a hard time believing he actually walked over water. Bolt broke two world records on the latest Olympics, but even the head of the Olympic comitee has doubts and claims that "we'll only know the true champions of these Olympics in 2016". Do you remember what happened when Kinc and Shamino broke the 3DM06 world record a few years ago? I'll spare you the details, but they eventually pulled that score, although it was proved more than legit a few months later.
One more thing. Hipro, stand up for the words you said about OCX or take them back. It is fine if you have your own negative opinion on particular people (including probably me from now on), however, implying what you said about a whole forum / team is a different story. Yourself, I doubt, you would like it if somebody gave similar comments about the Greek team. And don't worry about my blindness, I'd have said what I just said also if you would have said it about XS or any other forum I've been a member of.
Which is a comment I agree totally on. If you want to give comments on other people, accept that you will be given similar comments back. There's a very nice thread in here that illustrates what is being said here.
so you think that i never benched in public lol and have no experience in benching :confused:
Actually, he never said you didn't bench in public or don't have any experience in overclocking whatsoever. All he tried to explain was that overclocking is not predictable, which is actually incorrect as I explained underneath.
let me know if make their best scores in public events or on their own at home in their own country/setting ;)
That's not the point, John. The point is that this kind of gem hardware can always be pushed, in front of an audience, to certain frequencies which make it special overclocking gear. If he hits 650Mhz instead of 660Mhz, it's fine as well, it's just a matter of showing that with a little bit of luck and patience it's possible to achieve that frequency. Same goes for the videocards. If he hits 1210Mhz instead of 1250Mhz, everyone will believe that 1250MHz is doable in an enclosed environment where you have all the time to work up to the highest frequencies.
Overclocking is actually quite predictable in this way that equal hardware at equal frequencies should perform pretty much equal, variance allowed of course. It's not like your CPU will do 6500MHz one day and only 5700MHz the next day in the same conditions. And if it does, there's definitly something wrong with that CPU.
you don't need much more of an incentive with those "bring it" at the event huh :D
That was my initial thought as well :D
All he tried to explain was that overclocking is not predictable, which is actually incorrect as I explained underneath.
there are other ways to proof memory, CPU, GPU OC and stability then to have somebody travel to another country...
ps: hipilpro you're a sore loser
@ the rest of "supporters" why don't anyone of you fly Latvia and watch Sam benching off, if he cheats i will cover all expenses plus a 10%
or maybe you are afraid of been brainwashed as well :D
I'm IN on that deal...... :)
PLUS that afterwards and if it was cheating involved:
a. those two users will be banned for LIFE in every forum and in hwbot and
b. YOU will personally (pay me of caurse :D ) open a thread in XS, OCX, hwbot asking sorry for cheaters that are existing ONLY in OCX... :p
are you IN or are you chicken?..... :p
EDIT: I don't PERSONALY call these guys "cheaters" - for the time been - .... I just have seen BEFORE and now, "strange scores" and I HAD SENT a PM a month ago or so, to a hwbot mod about them and watch them closely - NOW as I see those "strange scores" are keep coming and coming.......
let me know if make their best scores in public events or on their own at home in their own country/setting ;)
me, Vince and Shamino, broke a year ago the 2k6 with 2 x 2900s...... IF I was alone - for example - the score whould be questioned because that period of time 2k6 was "NVIDIA's bench"....That WR which was made by three of us, took place at my place watched by over of 20 people..... :)
Lately, I've benched and took the 2k1 WR in 4870s CF category in public too....
SO benching in public with hardware you KNOW and you're familiar with, is NOTHING more that benching them at home alone.... :)
Predator
11-08-2008, 12:53
I'm IN on that deal...... :)
PLUS that afterwards and if it was cheating involved:
a. those two users will be banned for LIFE in every forum and in hwbot and
b. YOU will personally (pay me of caurse :D ) open a thread in XS, OCX, hwbot asking sorry for cheaters that are existing ONLY in OCX... :p
are you IN or are you chicken?..... :p
EDIT: I don't PERSONALY call these guys "cheaters" - for the time been - .... I just have seen BEFORE and now, "strange scores" and I HAD SENT a PM a month ago or so, to a hwbot mod about them and watch them closely - NOW as I see those "strange scores" are keep coming and coming.......
Only in OCX huh? , your team has been accused of hardware sharing recently, did i or any of the OCX members jump into that crossfire? NOT, why? because we have class ;)
I would be mad too if with all the hardware sharing i would still lost the 1st so quick :D , buy hey, I AM NOT calling your team cheater of course.....
i am IN, will you fly to Latvia to watch them how they easilly bench at those speeds, and then will you ask for apologies in public? or are you chicken?
take it easy budy, all an air
Only in OCX huh? , your team has been accused of hardware sharing recently, did i or any of the OCX members jump into that crossfire? NOT, why? because we have class ;)
I would be mad too if with all the hardware sharing i would still lost the 1st so quick :D , buy hey, I AM NOT calling your team cheater of course.....
i am IN, will you fly to Latvia to watch them how they easilly bench at those speeds, and then will you ask for apologies in public? or are you chicken?
take it easy budy, all an air
OK..... Deal with the guys if they want to and I'll tell them when......Deal?....
Yes, if they bench THAT HIGH (or a bit lower), I'm not afraid to ask appologies in public.....When I'm RIGHT, I STAND UP and fight and when I'm WRONG, I accept it..... ;)
I'm not "hidding" like "someone else" ALWAYS does...... ;)
P.S. jmike you're an ass... :D
Take this to PM/mail, thanks.
When I'm RIGHT, I STAND UP and fight and when I'm WRONG, I accept it..... ;)
I'm not "hidding" like "someone else" ALWAYS does...... ;)
Well, maybe someone has just outgrown the whole kindergarden accusations.
I would too.
Well, maybe someone has just outgrown the whole kindergarden accusations.
I would too.
......or maybe someone is trying to avoid the reality.... ;)
mrlobber
11-08-2008, 16:39
If I remember correctly, you were one of the people who actually worked in the CDT-thread over at XS, no?
Anyway, the fact that you're quitting the overclocking scene partially because multi-dollar Vantage rigs rule the world has nothing to do with the actual money you have to spend on your rig, but has everything to do with what goals you set for yourself in this overclocking community. If you're aiming for top spots in every benchmark, then yes, the multi-doller Vantage rigs will mess things up for you pretty badly, assuming you will not find any source of hardware besides your own pocket. If you, on the contrary, aim for having fun in overclocking, it's pretty easy to have a lot of fun overclocking ... very easy in fact. I have at the moment the gear to aim for top spots in some global rankings: E8600 with excellent stepping and a 4870X2. But instead, I rather spend my time hunting for sub30s 1M with my Athlon XP ... weird no? And I promise you, when I've finally broke 30s, I'll probably start benching my Asrock AGP motherboard, for which I bought an X6800. It's all a matter of personal objectives.
Now, I do know what comment will follow: Hwbot doesn't allow people to bench in old hardware categories, because the big points are only to find in the global rankings. Well, we are actually working on a new hwboints system that would hand out more points to excellent old hardware overclocks. From the moment RB gives me approval to post the suggestion in public, you'll know what it's about.
Next there's the rather incorrect analogy of the KGB-alike instances. I think it's more than normal, at least these days, that scores can be questioned and discussed, which is in fact completely the opposite of what you like us to believe. There's room for discussion and doubt, which is not the fact in what you say. There's a giant difference between being accused and being convicted here, please understand that. If you have indeed no place in such world, namely the overclocking scene, than you will have a hard time anywhere else as well. Everywhere in this world, when someone is better than the rest, people will question that person and his results. Jezus supposed to do miracles, but I know many people, including me, have a hard time believing he actually walked over water. Bolt broke two world records on the latest Olympics, but even the head of the Olympic comitee has doubts and claims that "we'll only know the true champions of these Olympics in 2016". Do you remember what happened when Kinc and Shamino broke the 3DM06 world record a few years ago? I'll spare you the details, but they eventually pulled that score, although it was proved more than legit a few months later.
Massman, I've always liked discussions with your participation, as you never seem to lose rational approach to any topic, thus, trying to stay as objective as possible. I'd love to discuss with you all this, and more in a live meeting whenever it would happen :)
Perhaps I was too harsh in my comparisons, thus, to a certain degree (more than 50% :p) I actually agree with your follow-up comments I quoted above. Then again, there are a couple of points I'd like to further comment myself :D
First of all, my decision of quitting competitive OC of any degree, which has matured itself within the last six months, is mostly caused by an internal "focus shift" and some other changes in my life. Thus, the latest events (associated with scores, which I personally considered to be the final serious benches for me) in fact wouldn't have changed my previously made decision anyway, and I just used the opportunity to express my views of the latest trends in the overclocking world.
Second, you're absolutely right in your comments about the fun part in overclocking, and I'm glad to hear that hwbot is considering moving to a different hwboints system where elite benches of older hardware would gain more weight as an award for the effort people have been putting in there (although note that the comment you said you expected didn't follow :D). However, my personal concern with the "WR benching" is that today, as never before, it has become not a race of skills and "sense of adventure exploring never reached territories in hardware frequencies", but a race and display of PR events, with h/w companies using top end overclockers for their product open and secret promotions, organizing "overclocking events" where your application gets promptly refused as soon as you mention the country you're coming from, and other both "hardwarical" as well as " boxes they are trying to push individual overclockers into (as a more xtreme type of guy, Sam has been much more hit because of this attitude, although I wouldn't like reveal some essential stories without his permission). But it shows up in the forums as well with people crowding around Nehalem and Vantage threads, raving about "great skills" in topics where close-to-wr scores with a couple expensive videocards running on stock air have been reached, and so on. Low end overclocking has not lost anything of the personal objectives appeal which you were talking about, however, human is essentially a social being, and you want to share the fun you experienced clocking a particular setup or reaching a small milestone with the others as well... but if nobody except your local close friends is paying attention, you start wondering, is it worth devoting any fine tuning effort in this at all... yes, it's all about personal objectives, as you said.
And last, about the better results being questioned... actually I don't see much difference between being accussed and convicted. Yes, as you outlined, it is there (technically), but in the overclocking world, with the accusations your reputation is damaged permanently (that is how I still see it, different people might have different opinions on this). And it certainly doesn't help that I've heard several behind-the-scene reasons how the animosity between XS and OCX originally developed as well as details on Sam's ban at XS which are certainly not the one-sided events as they have been portrayed so far.
This small margin between accusations and convictions is why I do not watch competitive sports much anymore, for example. The tip of the iceberg which has been revealed in recent years with sports gambling and associated bribing impacting games in team sports, and secret doping laboratories working for individual athletes, outlines the fact that now you can't draw a line anymore where some nature blessed tremenduous talent of an athlete is involved, or if it has been boosted by underground chemicals unknown to doping control. Even though there are only handful of athletes caught red handed, you can't be sure of anyone anymore. I believe, the comment you quoted on Bolt's phenomenal records, is exactly on what I just said above.
Linking all this back to high level overclocking, I see some astonishing results being questioned, and some not. If it is indeed so easy to fake them, then, as I said in my previous post, what hinders anyone who's smart enough of faking credible results with credible hardware frequencies? Even in public if cheat programs were to be run in background? I know, this discussion is leading nowhere as these questions have been asked numerous times before, but I still want to understand.
I have thinked about this situation a LOT and I came to some conclussions:
a. - and the EASIEST WAY - is this CPU to be SEND to a respectable overclocker to bench it at 6600MHz AT LEAST as for Super-Pi 1M and AT LEAST 6550MHz as for Pi-Fast.......
IF he manages to do so, then I - personally - believe every other bench that was made... :)
IF NOT, then ALL the other benches which was done with the VGA's, mobos, CPUs are FAKE....
b. Go to HIT at Russia with the hardware and bench it there....ALL expences are paid as I read so there is no excuse the money thing.... ;)
c. I come to Latvia and see myself so to convince pro or any other, that you guys are right..... :)
IF any of the above can't be done, then I'm sorry but PERSONALLY I will not believe that the scores provided are "legal" and not cheated.... :)
boblemagnifique
11-08-2008, 19:01
Tapatak ->
I would like to see some videos and pics of your benchmark in action, it makes the authenticity of your material has exceptional (the best as usual) ...
TheKarmakazi
11-08-2008, 21:02
I can understand people questioning a score, since there has been cheating by people in the past (not refering to anyone in this thread at all, just in general). Many of the above post are valid and thought provoking.... but many are also childish and pointless. I think most people here are adults, and should try to act like one. When it devolves into name calling, nothing will be resolved. Even if you do not think the other person deserves your respect, restraint, or courtesy, you should give it to them. Cheaters, liars, thiefs, criminals, etc... all eventually get caught. And to my knowledge, no cheating has been PROVED. It is only speculation...
Although there are many things that may separate us (countries, hardware budgets, sponsorships, cherry picked hw, etc, etc), should we not concentrate on the thing that brings us together? Our love of hardware, overclocking, and pushing things past all previously believable limits? As a personal rule I try to stay out of things like this, and so I will not be posting my personal opinion. BUT, I think it would do a service to all involved if we just take a step back. If people want to bench publicly or fly to someones house to validate, fine. But really I think every record broken is a great thing! Someone has pushed it harder than anyone else has... this is a cause to celebrate! Competition can get the best of many of us, but an ego is a nasty thing to let rule you.
Just my 2 cents.
edit: Mr.Lobber I sincerely hope you do not quit OC, especially over things such as this.
I do not want to sound as I'm making excuses but it is really not THAT simple as you may think.
Sure, George can come to Riga to see us bench (please note that this initially wasn't my idea) but there are quite a few things that stand in the way, such as venue (my parents simply won't let someone with "bad manners" who doesn't speak neither Russian nor Latvian in my flat which is out primary bench location), cost (after WCH hockey Riga is much more expensive than, for example, Berlin or Paris) and entertainment. Sure, those can be solved with some effort put in the organisation but I don't want hipro to be the only adjudicator as he is, obviously, party interested and not always objective (pardon if I accuse you, George ... may be I don't know you very well yet).
As I've said, HIT is a no go as well.
To leave EU and go to Russia I need a visa, which, due to bureaucratic properties of Latvia, needs 1-2 full workdays spent on collecting necessary papers and 3-4 more weeks for "them" to stamp it in my pass ... time which I simply do not have.
Other question is the cost of tickets/hotel which, if you book them "so late" are going to cost a lot.
And, last, at the moment I have extremely intensive schedule at the university, so missing couple of days will be hard (I have a lot of "debts" I can barely manage already ... sorry, but I put personal education on top of overclocking in my priority list)
I suggest myself (can't speak for mrlobber) coming to CeBIT (or any other big public event which will take place early in 2009) where there will be a wider audience and more opportunities to make suggestions / ask questions "during the process".
I'd be happy to send my hardware to other person to confirm it but, if I'm afraid it won't make any sense as some consider me "the source of mass cheating evil who can brainwash everyone" (LOL), so the BS may not end with that
Accually I don't have bad manners as you say..... :D
I'm a nice guy if you ask a LOT of people from the NET around the world that have met me in person.
My additude becomes a bit bad, ONLY when I see things like that and ONLY.... ;)
When CEBIT time comes as you claim, that CPU might have been "damaged" or burned and THERE YOU GO with ANOTHER excuse..... ;) :rolleyes:
BETTER is to send it to Dedal of SF3D or a person we ALL trust and respect, NOW - NOT after a month or so.....to clear things up.... ;)
IF you want to "crear things up" with NO OTHER excuses.....
ALL others are excuses to "crunch the time" like someone else did..... ;)
BETTER is to send it to Dedal of SF3D or a person we ALL trust and respect, NOW - NOT after a month or so.....to clear things up.... ;)
That sounds pretty good to me...if either of those two can replicate then there will be no doubts. You can explain to them however it is you did it, then they can show the rest of us results.
(Someone like Kinc who isn't involved in hwbot might be worth a consideration too)
when talking about shipping the cpu, it could also be to one from team japan
it is important that its a trusted person, bcoz if you get it you can just play bs with it or "force" it to degrade or eventually die, so clocks cant be re done again
Oliver, IF MY name was involved in such occasions, the hell with the CPU M8 and I wouldn't care if the CPU whould die.....After all it's my name and not a flucken CPU if you can understand what I mean..... :)
PLUS it will be sent to TRUSTED person.... ;)
....AND I doupt that ANY of these things will happen (even send it to a trusted person) because I don't see any "possitive reaction" of these guys here....ONLY excuses here and there....and in the end the "list" of the "untrusted people" will grow bigger..... ;)
I want to remind you guys that say it's always a certain bunch "singled out" or never the guys in the "elite club" that someone questions were raised over the scores of none other than Kinc in the past. First it was his 06 score a little over a year ago that most of us figured was bugged...he tried to replicate it himself, couldn't, and removed it promptly. (Even though that score was done live in front of many witnesses) Now there's this debacle over the 4870X2 scores. He was one of the first to have a "high" Crossfire score and many people thought it was bugged. He removed it, even AFTER making multiple videos showing that his game test scores were repeatable. I actually privately urged him to keep it published as we both felt that the score was fine (and it was a WR), but he said that he'd rather just remove it rather than have anyone even think for a second that he was doing something wrong. (Now of course we know that the score is perfectly reasonable and has since been passed)
Also perhaps a few VERY astute hwbot members might have noticed that about a month or so ago, Vince briefly submitted an apparently extremely fast 1M time somewhere in the 7.01 second range at little over 6500 flat on a Rampage Extreme BIOS 0206. I mentioned to him that it looked strangely fast for the clock. He had a feeling that it was way too fast as well, and suspected that it was a bug in SetFSB. He removed it on his own likely before anyone even noticed it.
To true legends, their reputation is worth more than any world record...
Predator
11-10-2008, 14:11
....AND I doupt that ANY of these things will happen (even send it to a trusted person) because I don't see any "possitive reaction" of these guys here....ONLY excuses here and there....and in the end the "list" of the "untrusted people" will grow bigger..... ;)
seems i was right when i said this:
yet you will demand proof on these scores as always :p
http://www.hwbot.org/forum/showpost.php?p=25280&postcount=17
it's quite funny how you (and i'm including Gautam here) in some way think you are like the supreme OC judges in the world or something
first, to James (pro) , buddy, i have nothing against you at all and will never be so, but i think the way you approached this debate was indeed unappropiate, starting with the title of the thread, and then the manners, i assume you felt pissed off but yet you know you should have asked for the legit of these scores in another way
then, as soon as the cat is out the bag, i certainly knew the Hipro and Gautam names would shown up in no time
twisting words, and making out loud assumptions about how "decent" are these guys, honestly, when i read both of you 2 guys post, i only can read bla bla bla
you are who try to manipulate people and who point finger out, period.
why in the hell should Sam HAVE to travel to another country to prove a score just because YOU guys demand it?
wouldn't be more than enough recording a video tape in which you can see the clocks in bios and then setfsb and 32M passed, is that not enough proof or are you going to say that can be faked as well? cause it's the only thing left to make me laugh off my pants
come on, leave the guys alone and get a life
The problem is that we (personaly I) have a life, have wife and children which I teach them EVERY DAY, to be HONEST MOST of all....
I KNEW from the VERY START of this thread that there will be NO PROOF at all, though I insisted somehow, not because I care about these guys BUT because I CARE about HONESTY in the overclocking community.......BUT I see that you DON'T want anyone to care about it.....
You will hear from me no more, because ALL those times I had fighten about HONESTY in overclocking world, I made "enemies"..... It's OK with me, I don't care about them because they DON'T WORTH it BUT I DO CARE about ALL the others.....
P.S. Recording a video of the bench says shi(f)t to me........
We have seen OPB's Aquamark3 WR video a year ago, that while his CPU was at the "edge" of it's frequency of benching, he poored only a few drops of LN2 in the pot to finish the whole bench......GIVE ME A BREAK.......This is CRAP to me...... ;)
Predator
11-10-2008, 16:37
The problem is that we (personaly I) have a life, have wife and children which I teach them EVERY DAY, to be HONEST MOST of all....
I KNEW from the VERY START of this thread that there will be NO PROOF at all, though I insisted somehow, not because I care about these guys BUT because I CARE about HONESTY in the overclocking community.......BUT I see that you DON'T want anyone to care about it.....
You will hear from me no more, because ALL those times I had fighten about HONESTY in overclocking world, I made "enemies"..... It's OK with me, I don't care about them because they DON'T WORTH it BUT I DO CARE about ALL the others.....
P.S. Recording a video of the bench says shi(f)t to me........
We have seen OPB's Aquamark3 WR video a year ago, that while his CPU was at the "edge" of it's frequency of benching, he poored only a few drops of LN2 in the pot to finish the whole bench......GIVE ME A BREAK.......This is CRAP to me...... ;)
Yet you are twisting my words again, i do care about honesty , such as i do about fairness which is the lack in this thread
and if you read back through the thread either mrlobber and Sam offered ways to prove their scores, the fact i am meaning is about why are they in some way "obligated" to give proof, i hope you understand what i try to get at saying this, i'm not saying they won't show proof, i ask why? should they
i never tried to be your enemy nor anyone's out there, but if you go against my team mates and i notice (in my opinion) unfairness in your comments then don't expect i am going to be friendly, yet i try as much to keep respect
about the aquamark video, i'm sure you know as we all do that am3 does need barely 2 little bursts of LN2 to complete the whole bench once you have the pot cold down enough, furthermore, there is nothing to do with this, i am saying showing video, showing clocks in bios, enter windows, overclock system, show cpuz, do real time validation and then pass 32m, tell me how you can fake that
and please skip telling anything can be faked if you don't tell me how
the comment "get a life" wasn't intented to offence, i am sorry if it did or sounded rude, my intenttion was saying that you have probably better things to do than accusing free these guys
OK.....In some of your words you are right..... :)
Why to show proof?......... OK........ IF a score is out of the limit and hardware MUCH HIGHER in fsb/clocks/etc from others and they (or anyone else) want to be OK with ALL the others (if you haven't noticed hwbot is a "competitive community"), they SHOULD show proof when asked......OR else everyone IN HERE could do as he pleases......
They are not uploading their scores in a forum of their own to go out and say: "Hey look I got these resaults".....They upload their scores to a "competitive community".....TOTALY different thing......We are TOO MANY IN here......
It's a site for competition if you can understand what I mean and proof IS NEEDED in here..... ;)
Predator
11-10-2008, 17:37
OK.....In some of your words you are right..... :)
Why to show proof?......... OK........ IF a score is out of the limit and hardware MUCH HIGHER in fsb/clocks/etc from others and they (or anyone else) want to be OK with ALL the others (if you haven't noticed hwbot is a "competitive community"), they SHOULD show proof when asked......OR else everyone IN HERE could do as he pleases......
They are not uploading their scores in a forum of their own to go out and say: "Hey look I got these resaults".....They upload their scores to a "competitive community".....TOTALY different thing......We are TOO MANY IN here......
It's a site for competition if you can understand what I mean and proof IS NEEDED in here..... ;)
that's the way things should be asked ;)
if proofs were always asked that way, neither me nor Sam and mrlobber would have a problem at all with that :)
mrlobber
11-10-2008, 17:43
For the moment I removed the scores which are being questioned here. Actually mostly because of what Gautam posted roughly 24 hours before this post. I've never pretended to be a legend, and never will be one, and I still can understand some of the doubts on these scores as the hardware involved might seem exceptionally fast for a neutral observer. However, what I cannot understand, is this prejudicing by some persons coming to post in this thread... and this is the thing I believe Predator is talking about as well.
Hipro, you've displayed this attitude the most brightly, starting from the very beginning with that "brainwashing" thing about me, developing it into "they're all cheaters" thing, and now stating you thought it from the very beginning. Don't you think that we might have our own life as well which you just boldly stated about yourself? I'm parenting my son alone, for instance - do your own conclusions from that. To Sam, it is even more funny, as he's still being parented himself :) But what I don't want, is to turn it all in some personal debate, as it seems this thread is slipping towards it all the time despite some brightsparks of rational discussion.
Anyway, my personal hardware at the moment involved in all this, is that Asus motherboard which is at the moment used as my 24/7 rig. I can take it out though and bundle for travel to any destination it would need travelling to. Almost all the rest depends on Sam. Whichever way of proof he decides to be the best, probably will be the one provided. That's it.
OK.....In some of your words you are right..... :)
Why to show proof?......... OK........ IF a score is out of the limit and hardware MUCH HIGHER in fsb/clocks/etc from others and they (or anyone else) want to be OK with ALL the others (if you haven't noticed hwbot is a "competitive community"), they SHOULD show proof when asked......OR else everyone IN HERE could do as he pleases......
They are not uploading their scores in a forum of their own to go out and say: "Hey look I got these resaults".....They upload their scores to a "competitive community".....TOTALY different thing......We are TOO MANY IN here......
It's a site for competition if you can understand what I mean and proof IS NEEDED in here..... ;)
So basically this says that hwbot is incapable of successfully validating scores to the satisfaction of its top10 users or?
I.e. if somebody does an extraordinary result, which the top10 weren't expecting, it now warrants additional proof?
Or am I missing something here? :o
Predator
11-10-2008, 19:05
However, what I cannot understand, is this prejudicing by some persons coming to post in this thread... and this is the thing I believe Predator is talking about as well.
exactly :)
there had been some talk that tapakah doesnt exist, just wanted to clear it up and make sure everyone knows he definatly does exist
he looks a bit like youhttp://benchtec.co.uk/1/sm/tongue.gif
Hey guys.
I'm a member at OCX team and forum and I'm an old guy, so I'm not into dramas. I can tell you there is no BS going on over there that I can see. In fact, I doubt you could get away with that over there. Members are critical of each other, but fair and trusting at the same time.
I'm neutral about any past dramas, never paid attention to it. Just want to put my 2 cents in to defend OCX which is not a home of cheaters.
I'm siked on the top teams battling back and forth, so let's keep it fun. Peace out to both sides.
Oliver, IF MY name was involved in such occasions, the hell with the CPU M8 and I wouldn't care if the CPU whould die.....After all it's my name and not a flucken CPU if you can understand what I mean..... :)
PLUS it will be sent to TRUSTED person.... ;)
....AND I doupt that ANY of these things will happen (even send it to a trusted person) because I don't see any "possitive reaction" of these guys here....ONLY excuses here and there....and in the end the "list" of the "untrusted people" will grow bigger..... ;)
I fully understand what you mean
We ALL trust? I don't trust even my cat :)
Come here and we will discuss it :D I might go to Cebit too, haven't been there a while.
But please one thing that you guys must not do is accusing and calling this word cheater BEFORE anything else. You simply DO NOT. Behave and be polite.
I just notice that similar situations happened in the past concerning the same clockers and nothing was done to clarify the problem.
Takapah, MrLobber, OPB, please join an international OC event and show us your tweaks and OC abilities. It would be a great honor for me to compete you in such events.
Why can't we ask hard questions from time to time? Overclockers can't handle a little heat? So you have to field a few questions, big deal. The one aspect of all this that I find troubling is that TaPaKaH is a self admitted 'cheater' - banned from both XS & hwbot at one time because of it. That taken with all the current happenings doesn't inspire much confidence. He seems like a nice enough guy but that doesn't change why we're all here. I've always liked mr.lobber, mainly from posts @ XS, and I can almost go with his word. However it seems the best way to resolve this to everyone's satisfaction is by one of the methods hipro suggested. If it were me I'd do my best to take one and work with hwbot to answer the questions so we can all get back to business.
there had been some talk that tapakah doesnt exist
Tell him to put a shirt on next time :D
banned from both XS & hwbot at one time because of it.
And CPU-Z
TaPaKah you made it well but all of this is fake.
This is your validation :
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc?id=128596
This is a fake because the code name Allendale only results from the L2 size detection (namely 2MB). If there were really 4MB, the validation would have displayed Conroe (Phile : this may be wrong, you're right, but in this case this helped finding out the fake :))
Also we found out that you already tried your cheat here :
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc?id=122548
(the submission IP is the same as yours)
Some other fakes attempts by TaPaKah (these were well detected as fakes)
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc?id=120207
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc?id=120541
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc?id=120546
If the CPU really was a E6400 with 4MB it would have reported something like this :
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc?id=100737
This a E6400 ES, and these CPUs actually had a 4MB L2. And notice that the code name is reported as Conroe. This is logical, as cpuz relies on L2 size to report either Conroe or Allendale.
On this validation now :
http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc?id=128596
4MB L2 and Allendale. If the CPU was real, it would have said Conroe, and period. Of course the author of the validation could not have known that.
IMO cpuz was cheated and the L2 size was changed with a debugger.
Concerning the cachemem screen, it could have been made on a E6600/E6700 and pasted over a fake cpuz screen. It's not very complicated to do.
Btw, I don't play favorites. Even with James (youngpro) who I now have come to know very well and respect as one of the best benchers of our day, and the original starter of this thread. The first time I talked to him was regarding very strange bugged 01 scores of his that were beginning to draw some attention and caused him to come under some fire. I remember telling him then that questioning scores is necessary when something feels wrong and it's nothing personal. I would go after my closest friends as well if something seemed amiss to me.
OMG , you are right Gautam those are all fake screenshoots , i cannot believe this still happenning and hwbot its doing nothing about it :eek: , all from the same guy :eek:. I knew somthing was not right when I saw those last benches of MR.Lobber and Tapakah :cool:. They keep doing it over and over again and get away with it :confused:. No wonder my friend James was so upset and he had all the right in the world to be upset , im with you James bro , This feels real bad for Us not cheating and working very hard to earn some points :o. Do somthing hwbot :mad:
mrlobber
11-15-2008, 21:21
I just notice that similar situations happened in the past concerning the same clockers and nothing was done to clarify the problem.
Takapah, MrLobber, OPB, please join an international OC event and show us your tweaks and OC abilities. It would be a great honor for me to compete you in such events.
Please, specify, when have I been involved in those "similar situations" in the past and how. People like "extrapolating" present events to the past where in fact from time to time I started benching together with Sam only less than a year ago (you can look up in my results, all those done together are marked as such in their description). Also, why is OPB mentioned here? All this doesn't have to do anything with him, at least to my understanding and knowledge. Or am I somehow wrong?
As for the things which Gautam posted, I believe Sam still had an explanation for this, although I've never got all the details, I think. So I'm not able to put any more light on this regardless of how much I wanted it.
Dedal and NeoForce supposedly are coming to Latvia at the beginning of December for some LN2 benching. I hope, finally this would put all this bullshi(f)t going on here to an end.
Did we have any news?.... :)
Dedal and NeoForce supposedly are coming to Latvia at the beginning of December for some LN2 benching. I hope, finally this would put all this bullshi(f)t going on here to an end.
Did we have any news?.... :)
I guess so
I guess so
I HOPE so.... :D
I HOPE so.... :D
I thought you 40+ ;)
good to know dedal and neo are going to visit Latvia
look forward to their report :)
I thought you 40+ ;)
No...... I'm 35....... :p :D
NeoForce
11-20-2008, 17:58
As for me I can`t visit TaPaKaH cause my visa expired yesterday. So...
No...... I'm 35....... :p :D
Hmm :) I'm little bit older :P But anyway, I do not trust even myself sometimes :D Regarding hope?... All hopes come true before 17 :D. After it is reckon
I would be interested to hear the explanation for the CPU-Z incident.
http://www.skeletonscloset.biz/images/skeleton2.jpg
George_o/c
11-21-2008, 03:07
What CPU-Z incident ?
What CPU-Z incident ?
http://www.hwbot.org/forum/showpost.php?p=25485&postcount=99
I don't think that there is going to be any explanations at all. We all got the point that there was something "fishy", so as jmke stated let's get that skeleton back to the cheating closet.
71proste
11-21-2008, 16:02
I would be interested to hear the explanation for the CPU-Z incident.
me too mate ;)
Yea, you two will wait for EVER for explanations...... :p
Job well done turning this into a rant tho.
it was a rant from #1 and onwards; childish˛
Why can't we ask hard questions from time to time? Overclockers can't handle a little heat? So you have to field a few questions, big deal.
knopflerbruce
11-21-2008, 23:35
Questions can be asked, in a polite manner. Not like the whining and bullshitting we've seen in this thread. Perhaps these guys would've been alot more helpful if you asked QUESTIONS instead of making ACCUSATIONS.
I will see what I can do to clarify those confusing cpuz shots
Questions can be asked, in a polite manner. Not like the whining and bullshitting we've seen in this thread. Perhaps these guys would've been alot more helpful if you asked QUESTIONS instead of making ACCUSATIONS.
http://www.hwbot.org/forum/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://www.hwbot.org/forum/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://www.hwbot.org/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif
Could someone take Tapakah's CPU and see if it does as he claims PLEASE (how much more polite could this be told?)........ :D
Could someone take Tapakah's CPU and see if it does as he claims PLEASE (how much more polite could this be told?)........ :D
Exactly :D:D:D that was polite , now we want an answer to that question please :D:D:D
http://www.hwbot.org/forum/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://www.hwbot.org/forum/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://www.hwbot.org/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif[/QUOTE]
71proste
11-22-2008, 15:19
Could someone take Tapakah's CPU and see if it does as he claims PLEASE (how much more polite could this be told?)........ :D
that's polite enough :) good man ;)
Could someone take Tapakah's CPU and see if it does as he claims PLEASE (how much more polite could this be told?)........ :D
There you go. Sounds a lot better than
I bet that he will not come. Reminds me of "another" person doing such things without providing real evidence NEVER till now. Do NOT expect him to Russia. BAD thing though is that I thought that mrlobber was decent. When he moved to the "other" forum, their "master" have manipulate them with some kind of brain wash, to cheet.
I KNEW from the VERY START of this thread that there will be NO PROOF at all
Yea, you two will wait for EVER for explanations.
..don't ya think? http://www.hwbot.org/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif
Do we have any news on that please OR are we going to forget it and say that it never happens?...Thanks a lot..... :)
ALSO it would be more appropriate - in my opinion only - IF the user Tapakah could upload a photo of the CPU showing ALL details of it EVEN the ones writen on the PCB of the CPU, in case that after 1 or 2 months crunching the time, he finds a good CPU that REALY does 6700MHz Super-Pi 1M and say: "hey guys did you see I was right?"...... "xxx guy that I've sent my CPU and benched it, found out that it was as I told you"
For avoiding such conditions, it whould be good if we had a PHOTO of the CPU now......
Thanks a lot guys,
have a nice day/evening,
George.
71proste
11-25-2008, 12:28
For avoiding such conditions, it whould be good if we had a PHOTO of the CPU now......
that would be great but hard to believe :confused:
........ Please....... :)
Hipro, are you going to Cebit 2009?
Yes I will be there all the time.... :)
Yes I will be there all the time.... :)
Any particular stand you'll be at? :)
Nope.....Not yet.....Maybe alone..... :)
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